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Post by theinquisitor on Dec 11, 2017 5:31:50 GMT -5
So there are a few threads for dungeon synth musicians but none yet solely on music theory.
I for one know very little about music theory, although I have played guitar for many years which has aided my dungeon synth compositions. I feel theory is not necessary to create the music but it certainly helps you understand exactly why melodies come together as they do in your head and help you expand from a single riff into a complex series of layers. I find myself exploring more and more music theory these days to try and improve my compositions; I often come up with a riff or melody and struggle to create more melodies to compliment it within a track. It seems the more scales etc. you recognise and understand the moods and tones they create the broader a range of knowledge you have to find and draw inspiration from. I feel the time has come to get to grips with the keyboard and music theory.
How important is music theory to you in composing dungeon synth? What scales do you think are important to creating the eery crypt like tones of the genre or the epic orchestral tones and so on? If you had to keep just one part of your knowledge of theory and lose everything else, what would it be? For beginners, where would you recommend starting?
Feel free to discuss any aspects of theory you want below.
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Post by zerointerno on Dec 11, 2017 9:05:36 GMT -5
>How important is music theory to you in composing dungeon synth? Very important, although my theory usage isn't very sophisticated. I just try to keep layers aligned to the same scale and fish out the harmonic dissonances between them.
>What scales do you think are important to creating the eery crypt like tones Natural minor and major chords with chromatic injection. Melodies with overdose of 8vas, 2nds and tritones.
>If you had to keep just one part of your knowledge of theory and lose everything else, what would it be? Can't happen. Besides, it doesn't work well to know a single trick, but the most important for me is intervals and their consonance/dissonance roles
>For beginners, where would you recommend starting? In this order: 1. Learn to play some tunes blindly 2. Learn notes 3. Learn intervals 4. Learn consonances and dissonances 5. Learn how the chords are built 6. Learn and understand beat sizes 7. Learn note lengths and triplets. 8. Learn scales
will do for starters.
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Tyrannus
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Post by Tyrannus on Dec 11, 2017 9:36:43 GMT -5
Well as we know, music theory is descriptive and not prescriptive, so learning it is of course not a surefire way to being a good composer. However I do think that it can be helpful, for a lot of the reasons you’ve already discussed.
For me, I started out knowing very little. I only began recording and working with noise in 2015, which was my first foray into sound art. In noise, as many may guess, music theory did not come up often and did not feel relevant to my work. In late 2016 when I had started to more fully immerse myself in DS (a genre I’d known almost as long as I’d known of Burzum, but never bothered to explore too too extensively) I still pretty steadfastly avoided and knew nothing about theory. It seemed like an academic/intellectual rationalization of sounds which seemed more prohibitive than anything. I felt I listened to enough black metal and DS to be able to focus on recreating that atmosphere with my limited knowledge, and so that’s what I did.
Shortly after the release of The Tyrant’s Tower, though, I picked up a more full-sized keyboard, which I really enjoyed playing. I was working with a lot of MIDI and VST stuff prior to that, which actually felt like a very awkward medium to me. I missed the hands on feeling of knob turning and spontaneity that I loved so much while making noise. The keyboard really opened a lot of things up for me because just improvising short arpeggios and things became very fun to me. I’ve always enjoyed having melody and, for lack of a better word, “musicality” in BM and DS, despite atmosphere being more of “the point” in those styles, so it was exciting to me to be able to move more in a melodic direction. The Sorcerer and the Serpent saw me exploring a lot more fun melodies, trying new things.
Soon after I dove into the creation of Black Sun, where melody again took a back seat. As I was transitioning into new forms of experimentation, a lot of the aforementioned “musicality” took a back seat so that I could just focus on sound and texture.
With The Warden though I wanted to be able to apply the joy I had with devising melodies to be applied to this new textural wonderland I’d stumbled upon, so as I made it I read a bit more about chords and counterpoint such that I could help use those tools to enhance my music. It was helpful to know which combinations of keys had already been found to sound very nice together versus me exploring different combinations myself, and while a lot of what I was reading seemed to describe musical phenomena that I had experienced and was familiar with, it made it easier to put these techniques into practice. Moving forward I aim to further expand my compositional ability, just because I enjoy working with this combination of textural and melodic elements.
So that’s my experience, but I just want to comment on what I think the overall role of theory in DS is, which again is to me a tool and not a requirement. You’ll hear some people act as if you need a certain amount of intricacy, compositional uniqueness, and/or “effort” to make DS, which I disagree with. To me, DS is defined by atmosphere, so however you want to generate atmosphere (while still relying on synths and some semblance of melody) so I think however you want to go about making that is cool. I’m interested in those projects that most effectively create an atmosphere, regardless of how minimal it may be musically. That’s what matters to me.
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Post by thekeeper on Dec 11, 2017 10:58:28 GMT -5
While I'm not too formally versed in music theory, I think whatever formal understanding of music theory people think I have comes from growing up writing a lot of music in guitar pro and powertab and playing/listening to a lot of technical grindcore/dissonant-hardcore kind of stuff (Sawtooth Grin, The Locust, early Dillinger, etc), so that gave me the encounter of a large variety of composition strategies, observance of patterns, how notes work with or against each other, time signature and key changes, etc. If you're a natural guitar player, try writing DS stuff in a tablature program. Depends on your skill as a guitar player on some level, and what kind of music you're accustomed to writing and playing for guitar, but I'd say writing in the medium you're accustomed to reading/writing already might open more doorways for you. You could even write a whole song out in tab, export as midi, and upload into a DAW and change the instruments.
Having said that, I admittedly write most of my DS stuff in a DAW piano roll, but I don't doubt that coming from writing in tab for so long has aided in the rest of my composition.
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Post by nahadoth on Dec 12, 2017 0:34:44 GMT -5
As someone who wrote my very first music before I really knew any music theory, I will say that as I've gained knowledge of it and more instrumental proficiency, those have in part changed my approach to how I write music. In my project where I do a lot of sequencing, the composition is very different from the project where I play everything in by hand. Music theory has helped a lot, especially if I do some improvisation to generate ideas - then if I record it, it's much easier to go back and figure out exactly what I was doing, since I have a vocabulary to describe it. It also gives you a pretty good set of strategies for dealing with most problems, but strict adherence to them leaves you with music that is usually less interesting in some capacity.
I'd say there are a lot of ways in which learning a lot of music theory can cause you to only make music for people who also know a lot of music theory. But one thing that I notice audiences in all genres respond to, regardless of musical training, is interesting rhythms. And I don't just mean percussion, but also syncopation in melodies or irregular time signatures. I feel at least some of the projects that have the most profound impression on me have really strong rhythmic elements in them.
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Post by andrewwerdna on Dec 12, 2017 7:50:16 GMT -5
I think people who are just starting out and have 0 knowledge of music theory should make an album or two with that complete ignorance. I think that can add to the feeling of wonder and discovery in the music, and that's a window of opportunity one won't get back. But then without any theory one might end up in a loop of making the same thing over and over, so I think a little bit of theory at a time can add to that sense of discovery throughout one's musical journey, like buying a new synth. I definitely don't think one should feel they need a complete understanding of theory to get started, and I think it can often be a hindrance, like the possibilities can be overwhelming. It's like working with Komplete rather than a 90's rompler. It's much easier to start with limitations and slowly add to your toolbox. And there might be less of a feeling of magic and wonder for the artist if he's familiar with every scale and chord. That's not to say one can't be highly-educated musically and not still retain that sense of wonder, but there's a risk of losing it, and I think that sense of wonder is more important to DS than sophisticated craftsmanship.
I'm still pretty ignorant of theory myself, but I got some tricks to make my ramshackle approach more interesting.
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Post by ranseur on Dec 12, 2017 15:10:22 GMT -5
I have a simple approach that's based around a certain scale and a droning root and perfect fifth pulse under it. Because I always use a moving drone that effects the harmonies I don't really think about it in terms of chord progressions or counter point. I try to keep a balance between trained and untrained. I'll allow for any combination of notes to be played together as long as they're in the scale depending on the song but avoiding too much clustering. I usually don't focus that much on the harmonic elements and just feel it out. Generally I do more of a theme and improvisation around a theme that I write after fucking around with a certain scale and I often change the key until it's right. Since I use so few notes (which is supposed to be a nod to ancient instruments) I normally resolve the melodies down to the root or scoop down and hit a lower seven and then come back up. I like to use phrygian mode, natural minor, harmonic minor, pentatonic minor, and some variations including tetratonic and hexatonic minor scales. Nothing really that exotic but I don't really fuck with the major scale. Should do more stuff in melodic minor and dorian, maybe I should try major more. But I avoid key changes to push the drone or minimal element, but sometimes I'll pull a few notes in a scale back so that I can do a pentatonic section in a seven note scale, same root.
Sometimes I've used a diminished five in the melody. You want it dark that'll do it. That and the phrygian diminished two.
When it comes to the rhythms I have a pretty bad ear. Been doing weirder stuff moving on and off the pulse but I'm not sure the proper way to describe it. Should ask someone I guess. Not sure if what I'm doing is technically polyrhythmic or not.
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Erang
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Post by Erang on Dec 13, 2017 5:39:45 GMT -5
"How important is music theory to you in composing dungeon synth?"
Well, as I've already stated in other topics I have absolutely zero knowledge in music theory. Absolutely none, being scales, notes or rhythm and tempo : except when it's in 4/4, I couldn't tell you what's the tempo of my songs... and I'll even go as far as saying that I have no real knowledge about equipement as well, being software or hardware : I still really don't know what all the knobs on my compressor really do, or on my reverb, etc. I just tweek them until it pleases my ears... and I make music since 20 years now...
Of course, one could say " well, this guy makes music during 20 fucking years and he still doesn't know the tempo of his song or what a compressor do? Is he dumb or what? "
No, I'm not dumb but the thing is that (and this is a very personal thing, not an "advice" for everybody) making art, for me, is the only thing that still keeps some kind of purity and innocence, if I may say so... it's the last tiny link to my childhood that still there... I still make music like I did when I was 14 or when I was drawing as a child : without having a clue about what I'm doing and just enjoying it and expressing my feelings in a raw & sincere way... And I also love all the happy accidents that happen when you play with notes without knowing what you do... Of course, on the opposite, when I have a clear progression in my mind that I want to transpose I sometimes struggle for hours because I don't know chord theory, etc. but that's not a problem to me.
I know a lot of people who know theory will disagree with me by saying that "knowing theory will expand your creativity and never stop it" and I'm sure they are right, really... but it's hard to explain for me and it goes beyond creativity : I want to walk blind... and just knowing that I "know the trick" is killing the magic for me.
All the little music "tricks" that I've found by myself during all the years making music are all those that stoped to be fun to play with.
Again it's like a magician : when you know how it works, it loses some charm.
Furthermore, I don't consider myself as a musician. I consider myself as a creative person. Or even an artist (in the sense that " I make art " and not in a pompous way)... and if I sometimes write or draw I don't consider myself as a writer or an illustrator.
On a side note to this topic I'd like to add that I'm not a "professional" in any ways and I never want to be one : I hate that word because to me it's a word that belong to the industry or companies world. That's why I'm sometimes puzzled when I read on facebook people saying that Dungeon Synth musicians "have to be professional" or must "improve quality" like if we were talking about a fucking company or an iPhone or any product... We are surrounded by optimised process and soulless manufactured product everywhere : can't we just keep one little thing "genuine" and spontaneous for a little while?...
Of course, I respect those who make music for a living and have to be professional but it's not the case for me...
I just make art because it keeps me alive and relativily sane...
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Tyrannus
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Post by Tyrannus on Dec 13, 2017 9:52:43 GMT -5
I have a simple approach that's based around a certain scale and a droning root and perfect fifth pulse under it. Because I always use a moving drone that effects the harmonies I don't really think about it in terms of chord progressions or counter point. I try to keep a balance between trained and untrained. I'll allow for any combination of notes to be played together as long as they're in the scale depending on the song but avoiding too much clustering. I usually don't focus that much on the harmonic elements and just feel it out. Generally I do more of a theme and improvisation around a theme that I write after fucking around with a certain scale and I often change the key until it's right. Since I use so few notes (which is supposed to be a nod to ancient instruments) I normally resolve the melodies down to the root or scoop down and hit a lower seven and then come back up. I like to use phrygian mode, natural minor, harmonic minor, pentatonic minor, and some variations including tetratonic and hexatonic minor scales. Nothing really that exotic but I don't really fuck with the major scale. Should do more stuff in melodic minor and dorian, maybe I should try major more. But I avoid key changes to push the drone or minimal element, but sometimes I'll pull a few notes in a scale back so that I can do a pentatonic section in a seven note scale, same root. Sometimes I've used a diminished five in the melody. You want it dark that'll do it. That and the phrygian diminished two. When it comes to the rhythms I have a pretty bad ear. Been doing weirder stuff moving on and off the pulse but I'm not sure the proper way to describe it. Should ask someone I guess. Not sure if what I'm doing is technically polyrhythmic or not. It’s interesting you say you avoid major scales and stuff like that. I personally am probably an oddball in the sense that I love the major sound in my ds and bm, and I love the triumphant feeling it can give. I think some people have noted that at times what I make can sound weirdly happy and I think I just gravitate towards putting this uplifting sound in dark packaging
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Post by nahadoth on Dec 13, 2017 12:03:40 GMT -5
It’s interesting you say you avoid major scales and stuff like that. I personally am probably an oddball in the sense that I love the major sound in my ds and bm, and I love the triumphant feeling it can give. I think some people have noted that at times what I make can sound weirdly happy and I think I just gravitate towards putting this uplifting sound in dark packaging I think that contrast can be super effective and alienating - I think Ulver is probably the first time I noticed major harmonies in black metal, and it made a huge impression on me, even if it was for one section - and I think the contrast of grim atmosphere and ambience with major melodies can work equally well in DS too.
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Post by DieuxDesCimetieres on Dec 13, 2017 15:10:26 GMT -5
My knowledge of music theory is cursory at best. I mean, I've read enough to be able to string chords together, but that's pretty much it. For the rest, I go by ear and what sounds nice to me. I'd like to learn more, but frankly, I haven't the time or motivation to study music theory in-depth. I've been looking for a good book about song writing on the piano, eg. that'd introduce concepts from musical theory in a practical manner, but so far I've not found one; I think that'd be the most feasible way for me to learn more.
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Post by ranseur on Dec 13, 2017 17:29:57 GMT -5
I have a simple approach that's based around a certain scale and a droning root and perfect fifth pulse under it. Because I always use a moving drone that effects the harmonies I don't really think about it in terms of chord progressions or counter point. I try to keep a balance between trained and untrained. I'll allow for any combination of notes to be played together as long as they're in the scale depending on the song but avoiding too much clustering. I usually don't focus that much on the harmonic elements and just feel it out. Generally I do more of a theme and improvisation around a theme that I write after fucking around with a certain scale and I often change the key until it's right. Since I use so few notes (which is supposed to be a nod to ancient instruments) I normally resolve the melodies down to the root or scoop down and hit a lower seven and then come back up. I like to use phrygian mode, natural minor, harmonic minor, pentatonic minor, and some variations including tetratonic and hexatonic minor scales. Nothing really that exotic but I don't really fuck with the major scale. Should do more stuff in melodic minor and dorian, maybe I should try major more. But I avoid key changes to push the drone or minimal element, but sometimes I'll pull a few notes in a scale back so that I can do a pentatonic section in a seven note scale, same root. Sometimes I've used a diminished five in the melody. You want it dark that'll do it. That and the phrygian diminished two. When it comes to the rhythms I have a pretty bad ear. Been doing weirder stuff moving on and off the pulse but I'm not sure the proper way to describe it. Should ask someone I guess. Not sure if what I'm doing is technically polyrhythmic or not. It’s interesting you say you avoid major scales and stuff like that. I personally am probably an oddball in the sense that I love the major sound in my ds and bm, and I love the triumphant feeling it can give. I think some people have noted that at times what I make can sound weirdly happy and I think I just gravitate towards putting this uplifting sound in dark packaging Might have something to do with when I was in an orchestra, I just connected more with the minor pieces and focused only on minor songs when I started playing folk. I did use phrygian dominant on one song which is a major scale, but a pretty minor sounding one. I don't think I have any interest in using the regular major scale, but weirder major scales or pentatonic yeah.
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Post by morihaus on Dec 14, 2017 8:04:55 GMT -5
When it comes to music theory for me, I am of the opinion that, as is said in the Havamal "it is best to be middle-wise".
I use keys and scales in most songs, some I do not. I used a 3/3 time signature in a recent work.
As is said above in some ways, there is a connection in my music to early life/ i itial understandings of the world. Also, before getting involved in writing, I do a lot of "playing". Not like practicing or anything like that, but playing in the basic sense of exploring the instrument and experimenting.
You can go to YouTube and see tons of guitarists who are proficient in music theory and they are noodling around and showing off both extreme skill and understanding of composition. Yet I doubt that Darkthrone or Tulus or something used these techniques at all...and they created legendary albums.
I guess that means the actual theory and knowledge of music theoru is only as important as the work itself requires.
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Tyrannus
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Post by Tyrannus on Dec 14, 2017 8:19:41 GMT -5
When it comes to music theory for me, I am of the opinion that, as is said in the Havamal "it is best to be middle-wise". I use keys and scales in most songs, some I do not. I used a 3/3 time signature in a recent work. As is said above in some ways, there is a connection in my music to early life/ i itial understandings of the world. Also, before getting involved in writing, I do a lot of "playing". Not like practicing or anything like that, but playing in the basic sense of exploring the instrument and experimenting. You can go to YouTube and see tons of guitarists who are proficient in music theory and they are noodling around and showing off both extreme skill and understanding of composition. Yet I doubt that Darkthrone or Tulus or something used these techniques at all...and they created legendary albums. I guess that means the actual theory and knowledge of music theoru is only as important as the work itself requires. My thought on showy technicality is, in its briefest form, “you don’t need to make bad songs harder to play” I think theory should always be there to enhance what you’re doing, not make it needlessly flashy or anything. If it doesn’t sound good I don’t care how elaborate it is
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Post by stormcrow on Dec 14, 2017 11:21:26 GMT -5
I think a deep knowledge of modern harmony is always helpful, no matter of what musical style we play. It can help us running through and switching modes,even if we're in a momentary lack of ideas or inspiration. But I think the most important (and difficult!) deal is to master accents, because rhythm is the most important and "atavic" thing in music, light years before melody and harmony.
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