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Post by toodarkpark on Apr 3, 2018 6:07:23 GMT -5
Grrrr saw a couple of releases on discogs today that are very fresh and are now sold out that I couldn't get hold of, made my blood boil seeing this. ThangorodrimGnoll
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Post by Robert on Apr 3, 2018 10:44:23 GMT -5
Yet another vaporwave / dungeon synth parallel: artificial scarcity created by intentionally limiting pressing to below the known demand.
Within 8-12 months, we'll likely see tape prices start to climb up to the $12-$13 level whil pressings remain at 100-300...
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Post by thekeeper on Apr 3, 2018 11:40:30 GMT -5
Yet another vaporwave / dungeon synth parallel: artificial scarcity created by intentionally limiting pressing to below the known demand. Within 8-12 months, we'll likely see tape prices start to climb up to the $12-$13 level whil pressings remain at 100-300... I don't know about the artificial part in terms of DS. I think 100 copies was pretty fitting for the Thango release, also because it came with a patch which made it more expensive to produce. Could've maybe been 150, but it was only the second release of the label so I can understand money constraints. I think for DS people are making what they have time and money for while trying to keep within the DIY spirit that's fitting of the genre. I do runs of 50 but try and do two titles per release batch. Don't really have time for much more than that, also because I spend a lot of time on the relic part of the releases. I'm sure others are the same. Out of Season does between 50-150 depending on the release, and he's doing represses more now if things sell out and demand remains. Deivlforst does tons of re-issues as well. HDK does ultra small runs and I legitimately think they can do a bit more, but they've said it's more difficult to do the kind of stuff they do on their budget in Italy, so I can't really speak to that. But like that one winter synth tape that was 7 copies, that seems weirdly low (and of course that's the one I like enough to want to own). Other stuff is legitimately limited based on demand, like how a lot of HNW is, but even then a lot of the 10 copy releases like Tyrannus' stuff gets re-issued once or even twice. John Jacob's new tape though, that's a 5 copy release and it's been like 4 days now and there's still one left. For the most part, I think the majority of tape run limitations in DS are pretty appropriate. I do sometimes fear the hype dynamic coming to DS. Like that Thango tape on Discogs, "played once". I hate that. It was literally out for at least a week before the physical. Get a taste of it if you don't want to listen to the whole thing before buying, then decide if you want to buy the tape. I really wish people didn't buy things out of FOMO or because they just want to own something that will become rare (part of the rarity comes from buying things in this way). I can't really tell in these two cases which was the driver: legitimate interest + a blind buy, but ended up in a bit of disappointment in the music then taking advantage of the demand, or actually buying just to flip? It could've been snatched up simply "because it's Thangorodrim/HDK", could've been "I know this will sell out really fast, so I'll buy it and then figure out if I actually want it". Or maybe they're in dire need for fast money, who knows.
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Tyrannus
Verified Account
Knowledge is Night
Posts: 806
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Post by Tyrannus on Apr 3, 2018 13:29:07 GMT -5
Yet another vaporwave / dungeon synth parallel: artificial scarcity created by intentionally limiting pressing to below the known demand. Within 8-12 months, we'll likely see tape prices start to climb up to the $12-$13 level whil pressings remain at 100-300... I don't know about the artificial part in terms of DS. I think 100 copies was pretty fitting for the Thango release, also because it came with a patch which made it more expensive to produce. Could've maybe been 150, but it was only the second release of the label so I can understand money constraints. I think for DS people are making what they have time and money for while trying to keep within the DIY spirit that's fitting of the genre. I do runs of 50 but try and do two titles per release batch. Don't really have time for much more than that, also because I spend a lot of time on the relic part of the releases. I'm sure others are the same. Out of Season does between 50-150 depending on the release, and he's doing represses more now if things sell out and demand remains. Deivlforst does tons of re-issues as well. HDK does ultra small runs and I legitimately think they can do a bit more, but they've said it's more difficult to do the kind of stuff they do on their budget in Italy, so I can't really speak to that. But like that one winter synth tape that was 7 copies, that seems weirdly low (and of course that's the one I like enough to want to own). Other stuff is legitimately limited based on demand, like how a lot of HNW is, but even then a lot of the 10 copy releases like Tyrannus' stuff gets re-issued once or even twice. John Jacob's new tape though, that's a 5 copy release and it's been like 4 days now and there's still one left. For the most part, I think the majority of tape run limitations in DS are pretty appropriate. I do sometimes fear the hype dynamic coming to DS. Like that Thango tape on Discogs, "played once". I hate that. It was literally out for at least a week before the physical. Get a taste of it if you don't want to listen to the whole thing before buying, then decide if you want to buy the tape. I really wish people didn't buy things out of FOMO or because they just want to own something that will become rare (part of the rarity comes from buying things in this way). I can't really tell in these two cases which was the driver: legitimate interest + a blind buy, but ended up in a bit of disappointment in the music then taking advantage of the demand, or actually buying just to flip? It could've been snatched up simply "because it's Thangorodrim/HDK", could've been "I know this will sell out really fast, so I'll buy it and then figure out if I actually want it". Or maybe they're in dire need for fast money, who knows. Yeah I'll second the point that small batches aren't always the result of nefarious capitalistic intentions. Often times it's just a matter of what one is capable of doing at that point, which is often just small batches. That being said I do think a number of people buy some stuff solely for hype, and sometimes solely with the intention of reselling it. It's hard to combat that but it's not really something that bugs me that much. I think yeah, generally the "right" amount of each tape seems to get made, so it all works out.
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Post by thekeeper on Apr 3, 2018 14:05:51 GMT -5
Yeah I'll second the point that small batches aren't always the result of nefarious capitalistic intentions. Often times it's just a matter of what one is capable of doing at that point, which is often just small batches. That being said I do think a number of people buy some stuff solely for hype, and sometimes solely with the intention of reselling it. It's hard to combat that but it's not really something that bugs me that much. I think yeah, generally the "right" amount of each tape seems to get made, so it all works out. Yeah I mean it makes capitalistic sense to take that opportunity, people just have to be aware of the dynamic they create and enforce if they want to not have to buy things within like one hour of an album's release (or less. Wasn't Thango the thango tape like within 5 minutes?). Really just depends if people actually pay the prices that are set though, like if someone flips a tape, whoever paid that 4x price are paying what they believe it to be truly worth. People wouldn't buy flipped stuff if they didn't believe it was worth that price, unless memetically influenced by a hype-dynamic in the short term where acquisition becomes more important than the item's substance, but even then that doesn't make a difference for what people are holding as something's 'true value'. Awareness of hype doesn't depreciate something's value. I still think it's pretty dumb to flip that high so fast, I mean I don't expect an original popular record from 10 years ago limited to 100 to go for the same or lower price than it did on release, and I'm sure we've all bought tapes, CDs, or records for a bit more at one point because we valued the item enough to pay the appreciated price, so yeah it can't really be helped. A bit similar to the 'pay what you want' option on bandcamp, people will pay what they're willing to pay (I've gotten like $10 before on digital where the tape was $6 but sold out), limitation just gets added to the physical dimension of market activity which always bumps things up. Literally everything is subject to this, it's just most annoying with underground music stuff. Flipping really only annoys me as a label operator, not as a consumer; since I take a lot of time making everything, it'd be kool if buyers were all legitimately interested. People complain a lot to label operators about limitations when they're typically at their working-capacity, but if people weren't hypebeasts, more people would have a legitimate chance to get the things they genuinely want (which is why some labels literally won't sell to some people who get identified as flippers).
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Post by toodarkpark on Apr 3, 2018 22:36:35 GMT -5
Well I got up at 5am NZ time to try catch the Thangorodrim and the latest HDK releases and even had them in my cart, but I also wanted the three new Out of Season releases and by the time I got to check out that's all I got. I've never managed to get a HDK release I am a collector and I rarely ever down load anything so I'm bummed. Ps thekeeper what label do you run ?
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Tyrannus
Verified Account
Knowledge is Night
Posts: 806
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Post by Tyrannus on Apr 3, 2018 22:41:38 GMT -5
Well I got up at 5am NZ time to try catch the Thangorodrim and the latest HDK releases and even had them in my cart, but I also wanted the three new Out of Season releases and by the time I got to check out that's all I got. I've never managed to get a HDK release I am a collector and I rarely ever down load anything so I'm bummed. Ps thekeeper what label do you run ? He runs Path of Silence
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Post by toodarkpark on Apr 5, 2018 23:50:10 GMT -5
Latest dipshit on the block linkYeah I'll give you big bucks with one feedback
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Post by thekeeper on Apr 5, 2018 23:52:48 GMT -5
Latest dipshit on the block linkYeah I'll give you big bucks with one feedback Wow, it's like they just made a profile to flip Dutch scene stuff.
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Post by thewoodwose on Apr 6, 2018 3:02:22 GMT -5
Flipping can be somewhat annoying I guess if you watch your discogs want list for releases (or get the emails) and hope to see a tape being resold for a decent amount.
I personally do feel in some capacity it is disrespectful to the artist as they are looking to exploit the scarcity of the release. It's like when people have made compilations or uploaded whole albums on youtube and put ads over it to make money off the endeavor. Yeah it sucks as a collector to miss out on a release but I will never pay an extravagant price to some random person that never listened to the release. I've come to terms that I'd rather support artists and labels when I can and be okay with missing out. I will buy secondhand if the price is reasonable though, as I understand the possible motives behind those reselling at reasonable prices better than flippers.
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Post by Pilgrim's Shadow on Apr 6, 2018 3:58:57 GMT -5
Flipping can be somewhat annoying I guess if you watch your discogs want list for releases (or get the emails) and hope to see a tape being resold for a decent amount. I personally do feel in some capacity it is disrespectful to the artist as they are looking to exploit the scarcity of the release. It's like when people have made compilations or uploaded whole albums on youtube and put ads over it to make money off the endeavor. Yeah it sucks as a collector to miss out on a release but I will never pay an extravagant price to some random person that never listened to the release. I've come to terms that I'd rather support artists and labels when I can and be okay with missing out. I will buy secondhand if the price is reasonable though, as I understand the possible motives behind those reselling at reasonable prices better than flippers. In a case like you mentioned, i would prefer buying the digital version of the album at the same price, supporting the artist instead of supporting random flippers. About physical Batch, i know small amounts of phsyicals are uselly what the artist/label can afford at a specific moment, but obviously there are cases when there is much more demand to physical releases, so how come small batches are released when demand is high? It's also possible to re-produce batches, it's done before.
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Post by ranseur on Apr 6, 2018 13:40:45 GMT -5
Flipping can be somewhat annoying I guess if you watch your discogs want list for releases (or get the emails) and hope to see a tape being resold for a decent amount. I personally do feel in some capacity it is disrespectful to the artist as they are looking to exploit the scarcity of the release. It's like when people have made compilations or uploaded whole albums on youtube and put ads over it to make money off the endeavor. Yeah it sucks as a collector to miss out on a release but I will never pay an extravagant price to some random person that never listened to the release. I've come to terms that I'd rather support artists and labels when I can and be okay with missing out. I will buy secondhand if the price is reasonable though, as I understand the possible motives behind those reselling at reasonable prices better than flippers. In a case like you mentioned, i would prefer buying the digital version of the album at the same price, supporting the artist instead of supporting random flippers. About physical Batch, i know small amounts of phsyicals are uselly what the artist/label can afford at a specific moment, but obviously there are cases when there is much more demand to physical releases, so how come small batches are released when demand is high? It's also possible to re-produce batches, it's done before. I don't think it's always just a matter of what a label can afford. Like with people who prefer to dub at home, doing more than 50 becomes an insane amount of work, some people might not be interested in taking the leap into doing them pro even if the risk of not breaking even is low for any number of reasons.
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Post by chaucerianmyth on Apr 6, 2018 22:05:08 GMT -5
I have seen The Canterbury Tales sell for something like $80 online, which always disappoints me, since I sold my last copies for the original price ($25), long after people (including myself lol) thought there were no copies left. It's not something I like because I find it manipulative. On the other hand, if it was the case of someone selling it because they were in a situation where they needed the money, I couldn't really be mad or blame them, but there's no way of telling, I suppose.
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Post by thewoodwose on Apr 7, 2018 23:55:20 GMT -5
Flipping can be somewhat annoying I guess if you watch your discogs want list for releases (or get the emails) and hope to see a tape being resold for a decent amount. I personally do feel in some capacity it is disrespectful to the artist as they are looking to exploit the scarcity of the release. It's like when people have made compilations or uploaded whole albums on youtube and put ads over it to make money off the endeavor. Yeah it sucks as a collector to miss out on a release but I will never pay an extravagant price to some random person that never listened to the release. I've come to terms that I'd rather support artists and labels when I can and be okay with missing out. I will buy secondhand if the price is reasonable though, as I understand the possible motives behind those reselling at reasonable prices better than flippers. In a case like you mentioned, i would prefer buying the digital version of the album at the same price, supporting the artist instead of supporting random flippers. About physical Batch, i know small amounts of phsyicals are uselly what the artist/label can afford at a specific moment, but obviously there are cases when there is much more demand to physical releases, so how come small batches are released when demand is high? It's also possible to re-produce batches, it's done before. It always felt better to me when I buy from the artist and not through a site like discogs. The thing I like about discogs though is the record shops that sell through there and price older metal LPs at normal prices. I used discogs a lot more when I first got into collecting vinyl and have since seldom went there to look for stuff because I've come to terms with the fact I will miss physical runs sometimes and I shouldn't let the fact I missed a vinyl or tape ruin my day when I can still support the artist directly though Bandcamp.
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Post by Båvingr on Jun 12, 2019 8:13:21 GMT -5
A couple of weeks ago someone bought both of my tapes off me on Discogs (I sell my own stuff there to undercut flippers) and asked me to sign them... (that should have been a warning) Then I saw he was selling them on Ebay for 3 times the price (£5 or £4). Now, this is still not much money, BUT the point of my label (Infinite Tapes) is that I can make an infinite number of copies so that everyone who wants one can get one, for a fair price - I HATE exclusivity! The result - I'm now selling my own tapes on Ebay to undercut him. Other results - I've learned that you can block known flippers from buying from you on Discogs: www.discogs.com/forum/thread/220690and on Ebay: www.ebay.com/help/selling/resolving-buyer-issues/blocking-buyer?id=4082With Bandcamp I asked and got the reply that you can just refund them via PayPal: "You are welcome to refund any physical orders that you don't wish to fulfill. Just click the PayPal link on your Merch Orders page, then process the refund through PayPal.com and you'll be set. Mentioning a purchase limit (and enforcing it through refunds) in your item descriptions might scare off any other potential flippers."
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