Tyrannus
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Knowledge is Night
Posts: 806
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Post by Tyrannus on Feb 13, 2018 9:14:13 GMT -5
To what extent would you guys say synthesis itself is critical to DS? I’m realizing a lot of what I’ve made doesn’t actually involve much synthesis at all since it’s made on just a keyboard and not something I could really call a “synthesizer” and I think this probably holds true for others as well. To be Dungeon Synth is there a requirement for it to be truly synthesized or just performed on electronic keys?
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Post by nahadoth on Feb 13, 2018 9:42:47 GMT -5
I feel like this question starts to get at the divide between electronic fantasy music as a whole and dungeon synth as a smaller category within that. I think you can justify a lot of high fidelity products which use actual synthesizers as being dungeon synth, but for me the platonic ideal is an artist taking these crude sounds with minimal effects/production, and imagining them better, sort of like a grainy Bigfoot photo.
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Post by andrewwerdna on Feb 13, 2018 11:50:05 GMT -5
To what extent would you guys say synthesis itself is critical to DS? I’m realizing a lot of what I’ve made doesn’t actually involve much synthesis at all since it’s made on just a keyboard and not something I could really call a “synthesizer” and I think this probably holds true for others as well. To be Dungeon Synth is there a requirement for it to be truly synthesized or just performed on electronic keys? I'd say it's not a requirement at all. If anything proper synthesis can take away from the dungeon quality of the sound because it often leads to it sounding futuristic. That's why I think it's important that if an artist decides to go this route that they do it with "rompler" type synthesizer, with a wide variety of oscillators that sound like real instruments, rather than an analog type synth with only basic oscillators like saw, square, triangle, sine, etc. But yeah, most people, especially beginners, should probably just stick to keyboards/presets.
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Tyrannus
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Knowledge is Night
Posts: 806
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Post by Tyrannus on Feb 13, 2018 12:26:05 GMT -5
Ha I guess it's funny in a way then that "synth" is in the genre name when a lot of pure synthesis actually doesn't sound like DS at all
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Post by andrewwerdna on Feb 13, 2018 21:49:52 GMT -5
Yeah it's not "pure" in the sense of being analog, but unless one is using just raw acoustic samples, as far as I understand the sounds were created by synthesis, even if by a keyboard engineer rather than the musician. So I'd consider pretty much all DS timbres to be derived from pure synthesis.
And basically any digital synth is a rompler/sampler, even the ones that emulate analog synths. So a saw oscillator on a digital synth is as "pure" as a violin oscillator in my opinion, neither are technically "real" oscillators, but I think very few people would argue that digital synthesis isn't the real thing.
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Post by andrewwerdna on Feb 13, 2018 22:14:05 GMT -5
When most people hear the word "synth" they think of the analog sound, but we get to show the world that there are other flavors of "synth," every bit as unique and distinct from other instruments. It's a specific machine that defines our music, one that I think has not gotten enough appreciation. Most people have written-off that sound as a cheap way to emulate other instruments, but as we all know these machines have totally their own character, without which dark dungeon music would not be possible.
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Tyrannus
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Knowledge is Night
Posts: 806
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Post by Tyrannus on Feb 13, 2018 22:41:24 GMT -5
When most people hear the word "synth" they think of the analog sound, but we get to show the world that there are other flavors of "synth," every bit as unique and distinct from other instruments. It's a specific machine that defines our music, one that I think has not gotten enough appreciation. Most people have written-off that sound as a cheap way to emulate other instruments, but as we all know these machines have totally their own character, without which dark dungeon music would not be possible. I like that, I hadn’t thought of it quite that way before
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Post by stormcrow on Feb 15, 2018 4:01:41 GMT -5
Anyway, I think it's curious that we're talking about defining DS ultimate rules, approach, sounds etc... DS (which no-one labeled this way, back in the 90s) was born pure escapism, a music with no rules at all and total freedom of expression. Thinking back of the early days, we could say the only thing that all the artists involved had in common was something "medieval" (or medieval black metal, if you prefer) in both songwriting and imagery. If I had to describe DS, I would talk about "an hybrid between dark ambient and medieval music", mostly played by just one man and his keyboard.
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Post by Båvingr on Feb 16, 2018 5:58:01 GMT -5
Never underestimate the usefulness of pen and paper when composing. Even if you don't read or write music, just having a visual way to think of your song structure that's not just tracks in a DAW can be very useful when trying to think of arranging especially. Good advice. Spent about 2 hours wanking about on the keyboard trying to add to a half finished track last night. Achieved bugger all and felt very disillusioned. This morning I sat down and wrote out a whole new structure for it on paper - feeling inspired now, it sounds great in my head!
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Post by sadboy on Mar 1, 2018 13:38:26 GMT -5
Hello everyone! Nice to see there is a thriving online community for DS, honestly I didn't think a forum like this existed but I'm glad It does.
Anyway, here is the issue I have been having I have been making trap music and rap instrumentals for a little over 3 years now, but due to it's more simple and repetitive nature I'm having a bit of trouble making the transition over to a more complicated genre like DS. Basically, I can write a chord progression and a melody or two but I'm having trouble turning that into a full song. I honestly have no idea how I should structure my songs, or how to continue building upon/evolving parts I've already written. I'm trying to write longer songs (8-10 minutes + maybe?) but It really is hard for me. Maybe I'm just overthinking things, but either way I'm stuck, any help would be appreciated.
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Post by Båvingr on Mar 1, 2018 13:57:30 GMT -5
Hello everyone! Nice to see there is a thriving online community for DS, honestly I didn't think a forum like this existed but I'm glad It does. Anyway, here is the issue I have been having I have been making trap music and rap instrumentals for a little over 3 years now, but due to it's more simple and repetitive nature I'm having a bit of trouble making the transition over to a more complicated genre like DS. Basically, I can write a chord progression and a melody or two but I'm having trouble turning that into a full song. I honestly have no idea how I should structure my songs, or how to continue building upon/evolving parts I've already written. I'm trying to write longer songs (8-10 minutes + maybe?) but It really is hard for me. Maybe I'm just overthinking things, but either way I'm stuck, any help would be appreciated. Hello, how about analysing a track that you like - write out on a piece of paper how it develops, what is added each repetition. Try applying that to your track. RE developing your track, something I read on hearthedungeons.tumblr.com/ is to try reusing a melody later, but in a different octave, or with a different "voice" or instrument - this would also make "space" in your track for another element to come in... e.g. start with a low string riff as the bass part, then change it up to a higher pitch, freeing up the bass to play something else.
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Post by heidis on Mar 1, 2018 14:15:59 GMT -5
Hello everyone! Nice to see there is a thriving online community for DS, honestly I didn't think a forum like this existed but I'm glad It does. Anyway, here is the issue I have been having I have been making trap music and rap instrumentals for a little over 3 years now, but due to it's more simple and repetitive nature I'm having a bit of trouble making the transition over to a more complicated genre like DS. Basically, I can write a chord progression and a melody or two but I'm having trouble turning that into a full song. I honestly have no idea how I should structure my songs, or how to continue building upon/evolving parts I've already written. I'm trying to write longer songs (8-10 minutes + maybe?) but It really is hard for me. Maybe I'm just overthinking things, but either way I'm stuck, any help would be appreciated. It doesn't have to be more complicated than trap or instrumental rap if you don't want it to, in my opinion. That's one of the great things about Dungeon Synth, even though it's such a niche genre, it has an extreme variety between all the different projects and sub-genres. It can be very simple and minimalistic actually, but it can also be made with great skill, epicness and much orchestration and what not. I'm a very new producer (started learning all of this in December last year) so maybe I shouldn't talk too much, but still, I feel that you shouldn't overcomplicate things if you have an idea of a song. As long as you find the right sound, it doesn't have to be very advanced, in depth or so.
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Post by stormcrow on Mar 1, 2018 14:26:16 GMT -5
Just one advice: listen, listen, listen and listen again. DS can be incredibly simple as well ad very difficult, it's all about what you want to "say" with music. For the chord progressions, I think the best thing to do is to study modes carefully and practice around them. DS is often based on phrygian or aeolian modes, but it can be more than this. Try some breaks with "major" modes, for exaple. In this way you have all you need to create sections and build up a structure. Don't mind about lenght, there are great DS composers with 2 minutes songs selling lots of files and tapes around the world... Hope I've been helpful.
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Post by sadboy on Mar 1, 2018 15:46:22 GMT -5
Thanks for the replies everyone,
After reading what you all said it seems I just need to start smaller and work with what I know. While I would like to be writing 10 minute epics, perhaps I'm not at that level of skill yet haha, which Is fine by me. Maybe one day...
And to "bavingr" specifically, I will be trying that method later tonight, I used a similar strategy when I first started making music and it worked well, I'm sure it would work great here too.
And while I'm here, I just have one more question that has been bugging me for a while. What drumkits do you all use for DS? (assuming you even incorporate percussion) I can't really find any good "medieval" sounding drumkits, or at-least something a bit more in the "lo-fi" realm. So far I've just been using a generic acoustic drumkit which is good enough I suppose, but it doesn't really provide the right atmosphere I'm aiming for. Can anyone point me in the right direction?
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Post by heidis on Mar 1, 2018 18:28:10 GMT -5
Thanks for the replies everyone, After reading what you all said it seems I just need to start smaller and work with what I know. While I would like to be writing 10 minute epics, perhaps I'm not at that level of skill yet haha, which Is fine by me. Maybe one day... And to "bavingr" specifically, I will be trying that method later tonight, I used a similar strategy when I first started making music and it worked well, I'm sure it would work great here too. And while I'm here, I just have one more question that has been bugging me for a while. What drumkits do you all use for DS? (assuming you even incorporate percussion) I can't really find any good "medieval" sounding drumkits, or at-least something a bit more in the "lo-fi" realm. So far I've just been using a generic acoustic drumkit which is good enough I suppose, but it doesn't really provide the right atmosphere I'm aiming for. Can anyone point me in the right direction? I don't know exactly what you're after of course but if you like the percussion in for example this song: ornatorpet.bandcamp.com/track/de-tappra-f everything percussion heard in it comes from a sample pack called "256 orchestral samples" and there are several good sounds in there where you can find cymbals, timpani, gongs, cool snares etc, but not just percussion ofc
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