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Post by andrewwerdna on Sept 14, 2019 15:37:23 GMT -5
It might be worthwhile to discuss what's going on over there, since we can probably look at it with a more detached perspective here where it's quieter and less heated.
It looks like stuff is getting deleted again to avoid conflict and "politics," which as far as I understood was the primary reason for the management change in the first place. While I personally don't think real-world politics have much of a place in DS, it seems to me that one can't restrict political discussion without overmoderating, since there's such a grey area of what is and isn't political. Like, even making a thread about whether politics should be discussed is apparently political? All that I really think should be restricted is spam, harassment, and hate speech, but I can see how that might make things feel out of control for the moderators. I'd be fine with letting it be out of control, but that's easy to say when I'm not in the position of responsibility. But also I personally don't have much attachment to Facebook as a platform for DS, so I'm not particularly bothered whether or not it turns into cesspit, would rather risk that and have everyone be able to speak freely than the alternative.
Edit: For those who missed it btw, apparently somebody made a thread asking if there are any LGBTQ DS musicians and that got taken down. I missed that one so I can't expand on that. But then somebody made a thread saying politics have no place in DS and that blew up with a lot of people seeming upset on both sides and that got taken down after around 200 posts. I guess the reasoning the moderator gave for taking the original thread down was that it was political, irrelevant to DS, and it would be a target of attack for bigoted assholes.
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Post by crystallogic13 on Sept 15, 2019 2:02:38 GMT -5
I've seen internet (and real life) "scenes" or "communities" always been plagued sooner or later by some politics/drama/etc etc. This is true of course for Dungeon Synth. But.. BUT .. I never post on either of the 2 FB groups but the drama in those places for the past weeks has been escalating really... I don't want to bring up Canrith's/Hollow Myth's issue since I'm not on physical, don't know the guy, sure I don't like the alleged things he's done but man they took it to another level to the point of bullying imho (even though he might be a bully too in the past to other people)..
For the things Andrew described for yesterday, since I didn't catch up with the specifics, my opinion is that there always needs to be some moderating, but drawing a line is so much difficult.. Also, the timing is crucial as it's different to trash a 5 post thread which could be off topic/offensive/whatever, but trashing a 100 post thread is VERY LATE, and certainly not respecting the effort commenters put into it.. Also, what is on-topic, off-topic , offensive , or even irrelevant ? Personally, I think he had a valid reason for trashing the specific thread but he was late and should just lock it... Simply , who gives a f if you are gay,lesbian,etc.etc. , this is about MUSIC or relevant discussion (epic fantasy books,movies,culture etc etc) , anything else is considered spam for me really and if someone pushes it too much (like NSBM in non NS metal pages)I consider it an agenda and really irritating..
That's my 2 cents..
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Post by theswordthatsang on Sept 15, 2019 9:11:34 GMT -5
I left the groups after black metal-friday not only became a thing in both of them, but also became the most dominant activity.
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Post by andrewwerdna on Sept 15, 2019 10:09:12 GMT -5
Personally, I think he had a valid reason for trashing the specific thread but he was late and should just lock it... Simply , who gives a f if you are gay,lesbian,etc.etc. , this is about MUSIC or relevant discussion (epic fantasy books,movies,culture etc etc) , anything else is considered spam for me really and if someone pushes it too much (like NSBM in non NS metal pages)I consider it an agenda and really irritating.. About the LGBTQ thread, I personally don't give a fuck, and I know from reading the followup thread that a lot of people seem to give too much of a fuck. But as for the argument that it's irrelevant to DS, I have to disagree, as someone made the case for in that thread that got deleted, that's substantial background information about the artist along the same lines as what country they are based in, and I don't think anyone would delete a thread asking where DS artists are from. But I definitely agree on your last point, instead of forbidding political discussion outright, the genuinely irrelevant and distracting political posts could be addressed as spam and I think that would be a lot more manageable to moderate without being overly restrictive.
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Post by Pilgrim's Shadow on Sept 15, 2019 19:32:28 GMT -5
It might be because i'm relatively new, but i don't remember a time of quiet at the Facebook groups in the last years. I quit them both. Their ugly atmosphere started to interfere with my DS listening experience, which is the big NO NO. andrewwerdna , can you please explain why you don't think politics have much of a place in DS, and that facebook is a bad platform for the community? I agree with you, but you got me curious about your reasons.
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Post by andrewwerdna on Sept 16, 2019 0:12:48 GMT -5
can you please explain why you don't think politics have much of a place in DS, and that facebook is a bad platform for the community? I agree with you, but you got me curious about your reasons. Why I don't think politics have a place is basically because I think of dungeon synth as being "high fantasy" in the sense of being totally removed from this world. But that's just the works in and of themselves, I don't see anything wrong with discussing our political views with each other unless one is trying to embody a persona which is part of their work or something. I think at the end of the day most of us agree with this, that for this music there should be a separation between art and artist, which is why so many of us can appreciate Burzum without approving of his extracurricular activities. And about Facebook as a platform, since you asked I'm going to rant a bit. I wouldn't say it's bad necessarily, I mean it's not like there's an alternative that could sustain this level of interest and activity. It's just not ideal for me personally, and I probably have a very different relationship to this music than most. When I first got into it I thought I was one of the only people in the world who had an appreciation for this stuff, if not the only one who truly got it, and that isolation was very much part of the experience. And recently I think I've come to a realization that a large part of what has always drawn me to DS is as an escape from social anxiety type ruminations, especially when I was younger and that was more severe, since DS is about as far removed from this world and its concerns as any music could ever get me. So really the ideal for me to most appreciate DS is to not socialize about it at all, but I do like talking to folks with shared interests and reading their thoughts, so I won't be leaving Facebook anytime soon, but compared to old-school bulletin boards like this Facebook seems very much an environment which cultivates that exact sort of anxiety which caused me to flee to DS in the first place. So for me it's really antithetical as a platform to what DS is trying to achieve. I think the like/reaction system is the worst part, every statement made is given an impersonal public value judgment, so you're always thinking about who and how many people liked your post, whether you should like someone else's post, whether you're leaving too many likes, whether you're leaving too few, I hate that shit! And it's not like something you can opt-out of because you seem like an asshole and it's impossible to entirely disregard the reactions your posts get. For me DS is the medicine to the stress which that sort of environment induces. But I do enjoy the various Facebook groups for what they are, it can be fun, and I've even come to be entertained by the memes and drama and whatnot, I just try to think of the social media community and DS itself as being intrinsically separate. I guess that's why I'm not really concerned about off-topic stuff in the main group, since the whole thing is off-topic in my mind.
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Post by stormcrow on Sept 16, 2019 1:44:42 GMT -5
can you please explain why you don't think politics have much of a place in DS, and that facebook is a bad platform for the community? I agree with you, but you got me curious about your reasons. I think of dungeon synth as being "high fantasy" in the sense of being totally removed from this world. But that's just the works in and of themselves, I don't see anything wrong with discussing our political views with each other unless one is trying to embody a persona which is part of their work or something. I think at the end of the day most of us agree with this, that for this music there should be a separation between art and artist, which is why so many of us can appreciate Burzum without approving of his extracurricular activities. tihs is correct, for me.
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Post by thekeeper on Sept 16, 2019 10:17:22 GMT -5
Even though I was made a mod on the big DS group now, I mostly missed the LGBTQA+ threads. From my understanding, there was a sequence of like three of them in a row, each getting deleted as things started to go downhill, and the third was deleted because the person posting was trying to get a rise out of people and stir up some more arguments (also in order to react to the deletion itself). I don't really mind arguments or discussions like that, and I think that topics like this are fair game even in the context of high-fantasy DS (e.g. does the DS community foster a more inclusive scene for queer people compared to black metal? Does the escapism/detachment/romantic aspect of the genre play into this? For that matter, what is the 'DS community'?, etc). However, I think it's due to the conversation happening on Facebook that it goes downhill so quickly. We could have that same discussion on the forum here and I think it'd go pretty well. Not everyone sees eye-to-eye here, but we take the time to think about our posts, things are more considered, and there's an extremely-diminished sense of showmanship here in contrast to Facebook. FB is too fast. Perhaps another difference is that people in the FB groups are theoretically talking to 4000+ people whenever they post or comment. There's a larger public feel. While technically everything here is still online and therefore open access, it's still more like we're talking with each other more intimately. New posts are highlighted, but they're not served to us in a feed like Facebook where we have to see everything no matter what. And also, like andrewwerdna said, the like/reaction system is pretty awful and I think this dynamic has warped the way people converse online for the absolute worse. I was really surprised this board had a like feature turned on by default when it was made. Maybe it's just the stone background that makes things more tame here, ha. But all this said, I'm still in the groups to see what's going on. The only moderating I really do is accepting join requests. I'm always at the cusp of deleting FB anyway.
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Post by Pilgrim's Shadow on Sept 16, 2019 12:45:48 GMT -5
Yeah i was also wondering how come it is cozy in the forum in oppose to the big fb groups. Maybe it's because more people will argue and complain when you can just post without creating an account
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Post by visc on Sept 16, 2019 15:20:38 GMT -5
This isn't really related to the politics meta-discussion, but I do think it should be mentioned that it's a shame the dynamic of larger group/smaller group seems kind of lost now. I know there was quite a bit of friction between the two groups, but it was pretty nice to have a smaller group that was more focused towards artists and labels with a larger group geared towards fans of the genre.
I know it's ironic to say that after drama being the reason there were even two main groups in the first place, but hey.. it seemed to work.
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Post by skirmisher on Oct 11, 2019 5:32:56 GMT -5
I know it's an old thread already but I just want to thank you all for not bringing this bullshit here on the forums. This is exactly why I deleted my facebook account in the first place. I don't have the time, energy nor will to deal with this bickering. I think the platform is poison and I'm glad we have a forum. When it comes to politics in dungeon synth I really don't want anything to do with any of that. Bringing everyday issues with you is the exact opposite of what I want from this music.
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Post by crystallogic13 on Dec 24, 2019 7:41:47 GMT -5
Sorry to bump the thread, but it is clearly evident of how badly structured FB is, despite its traffic, due to the recent events .. Let me summarize thing's I assume from today's two major DS (Dungeon Synth & Dungeon Synth Cult) FB groups : 1. Guy posts Grandma's Cottage album which has dungeon synth tag by the artist on bandcamp and *I* thought since the music is DS there is no argue that it belongs of course in the channels. 2. Ultra fast post sensitive admin, deletes it. 3. Discussion, rightfully follows, 142 comments in one thread resulting in a poll probably leading to an approach of strict DS major group lenier DSC .. 4. Ok, I'm still reading comments, but it seems that the strict administration (that might be needed since the "Wall" page on itself is a mess and chaos as a platform really compared to forums like this one) is a big problem. I will leave this completely idiotic comment here, without mentioning the poster, one of the admins : "Grandma's cottage is probably more suited for "not dungeon synth but..." since it doesn't have any visible connection to black metal." ... "oh, grandma's cottage is fuckin excellent. There is nothing more comfy, but it just isn't in the spirit of dungeon synth. At least not according to the suggestions I've been receiving... π" So. who the fuck (excuse me) told this guy he's the gatekeeper and definition author ? Does being an admin of the group make you have a saying in art and music ? Really ? This is pure $#^#$^ people. For real. Facebook pages are doomed. Too bad there is so much crowd and good activity there.. All this on a release that has the tag by the artist.. Now, good way and message to send to people wanting to participate to the community.. Sorry for being a little angry, but when I see nobodys thinking they can admin and sail a whole music genre ship this is driving mad...
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Post by crystallogic13 on Dec 28, 2019 1:25:07 GMT -5
More news and drama from Facebook drama queens : Let me make a long story short of what I was fast to read before it got deleted by the delete-happy #@$%@^ admins on Facebook groups : 1. Lord Tetrawhateverfuck had a CD out with stupid nazi symbols. (nothing new here,I think people should ignore them not talk about them and promote them) 2. Ancient Meadow records releases same CD without said symbols (which is ok by most people standards really) 3. People who in the community identify as "antifa"(?) and have take it upon the internets to argue/attack(?? - not clear) to Ancient Meadow's owner. (bad choice imho) 4. Owner decides can't take randoms on internet attacking him , it's normal, but decides to drop everything and makes a post/drama about leaving the scene out of something that "has happened". (his own right , but bad decision as it encourages the trolls who make a political argument out of everything) 5. People argue, make assumptions about what has happened and drama ensues as the first left/right wing usual discussions start.. ( = community is in same shit for 435246th time) 6. Admins in facebook group delete, delete, delete for the 435643643 th time , lol (which is pathetic beyond patheticness) 7. ?? More ?? 8. This morning I see this laughable shit by a $#^$#@^$ #$%&^#&^ admin of the FB DS group : Let me again tell you how much I'm tired of people attacking people for posting Varg's albums, for attacking Ancient Meadow, for even creating another (of the countless) Antifa FB group which I'm NOT a member of. Yes we're all tired of people turning every Tomhet post into a political argument, of pointing fingers and calling nazi everyone... BUT this specific announcement has taken it to the other side of the far off extreme (right wing). So , I *assume* admins deleted LEFT Wing identifiers and ask the rest left they forgot to delete to leave ? Seriously- REALLY?? That is obviously sending a certain message to the others,the far off right wing side, the fucking nazi trash , cause that's what they are that the group will be more than happy to tolerate their pitiful existence subtly promoting their hateful nazi ideology... Really, one mistake after another for the community, too sad to see it getting destroyed by hypersensitive even childish antifas or nazi-friendly(judging directly from their actions and announcements) stupid pathetic cunts that are $#^#$^ but have run a facebook page. I won't be leaving the FB group(s) but I'm sure a lot of people NOT INVOLVED in the above net drama really shake their heads in frustration of the stupidity of people in the community.. At all sides.. Solutions that are unfortunately not gonna happen : -People ignore political and hate symbols of the releases and focus on music. Stop posting for the 436346th time Varg is a nazi, we all know it but he created some great music (and the certain ambient/DS songs do not even have lyrics,please!)
-Ancient Meadow owner decides to keep it rolling and involves in less drama posts etc. -Admins of FB groups disappear and understand moderating is one thing being a cunt is another for deleting people for their views or deleting posts or whole conversations or even things they deem not DS like few days back or COUNTLESS other things that have happened lately.. It's not the politics, lately the discussion on what is and is not DS and some gatekeeping by some people wanting to rule things is very obvious. The biggest fail is of the FB groups which act unfortunately as the biggest community and front shop for all of DS...
Pretty disappointed really ... But since music is the focus I think we all should now listen to some good DS and try to move on..
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Post by DieuxDesCimetieres on Dec 29, 2019 10:40:09 GMT -5
Wow, so much drama since I was kicked out of the FB group last summer for... well, I have no idea as to the reason why, because nobody bothered to tell me
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Post by dungeonsnake on Dec 30, 2019 11:42:14 GMT -5
Every time this kind of thing comes up, it makes me glad I don't really follow the facebook groups at all
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