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Post by Telaestheticist on Sept 23, 2019 6:48:22 GMT -5
As it has clearly been discussed at length in this forum, the tone, ambience, and aesthetic of Dungeon Synth can vary significantly from artist to artist. Outside of the typical genre conventions of Dark Fantasy or The Middle Ages, there are also Dungeon Synth albums that incorporate Ancient Egyptian or even Japanese themes and music. But sometimes I find that there is classified Dungeon Synth music that in some way doesn't capture the spirit of Dungeon Synth, and it's not because it uses an unconventional historical setting or cultural theme.
A good example of this would be three artists: Midnight Syndicate, the related Nox Arcana, and the more recent Derek & Brandon Fiechter It is worth noting that despite their notoriety, these three artists have rarely been mentioned in Dungeon Synth discussions that I've read
With Midnight Syndicate, and the Nox Arcana project that broke off from it, there are clearly darker themes throughout. Their use of dark imagery, save for a few exceptions, such as the Dungeons & Dragons soundtrack or Winter's Majesty, overwhelmingly feature some kind of over the top Gothic or Halloween aesthetic - especially the latter. In point of fact, my first exposure to either of them was for Halloween music. But while I can fully understand that both of them draw heavily from Neoclassical Darkwave, which itself has a clearly Gothic focus in many cases, it is not entirely unreasonable to characterize a significant portion of their sound as drawing from Dungeon Synth. One could even argue that these artists were my first exposure to any aspects of the sound, before I ever knew about the Dungeon Synth genre. It is also worth noting that there are explicitly Neoclassical Darkwave artists who have straddled the border of Dungeon Synth, such as with Dead Can Dance's Saltarello, and Neoclassical Darkwave has been influenced by Black Metal in similar respects to Dungeon Synth.
With Derek & Brandon Fiechter, though the basis of the sound comes from the same samples as most Dungeon Synth - even more so than Midnight Syndicate and Nox Arcana, the tone and aesthetic is quite different than what you typically hear in Dungeon Synth music. Derek & Brandon Feichter's music, similarly to the other two artists, mostly seems to serve the purpose of creating "background music", in a dizzying array of different settings and cultures. My own criticisms aside, some of the music on Ancient Rome has been particularly pleasant for me personally, given the near absence of the sound in the Dungeon Synth scene.
Though Dungeon Synth is by its very nature an atmospheric genre, music like those from the three projects I mentioned don't seem to have the same aesthetic goals as of a lot of other Dungeon Synth. I'm certainly aware that this is a subjective opinion, but though I can certainly enjoy these artists, I find they aren't as satisfying as other artists that more clearly express themselves in the Dungeon Synth aesthetic. Thinking about this has made me wonder how much the intent to create Dungeon Synth affects how well it captures the spirit of the genre. I by no means want to be a gatekeeper for the genre, especially with the more limited experience I have with Dungeon Synth. But I think that what goals an artist has for their music is what separates abnegative Dark Fantasy music from albums you are likely to find in the bin at a Halloween store.
Some of this is definitely a factor of how outsiders view this genre, and what has managed to sell. But there are certainly aspects that come down to the different ways we interpret Dungeon Synth. Whereas some of us might want music for playing a Dark Fantasy game, some might want music for reading a book about Vampires and Werewolves. There are even forms of Dungeon Synth that are explicitly based on the Gothic imagery of the vampire, as a older post in this forum examined. But even the vampiric Dungeon Synth I've found manages to have more texture and nuance to it than even the best of Nox Arcana. Moreover, as the participation from users in this forum well illustrates, there is an independent Dungeon Synth scene and community with it's own creative ecosystem. It seems that, at least to me, some Dungeon Synth music is disconnected from that in some manner.
Whatever the case, I'd love to hear your thoughts about this subject, and my musings - however tangential they may have turned out to be.
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Post by theswordthatsang on Sept 23, 2019 7:12:25 GMT -5
It would be incredibly interesting to look at DS through critical discourse analysis as provided by Lakoff. To really map out the types of framing that are being used and what concepts are severely connected to them.
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Post by andrewwerdna on Sept 23, 2019 23:13:29 GMT -5
I've found these three artists you mention interesting for a long time because of those surface parallels, but yeah never considered them to be DS for the reasons you mention. I don't remember anybody else categorizing them as such either, always only even seen them mentioned in the context of being a neat peripheral thing. Interesting that you bring up how black metal has influenced neoclassical darkwave though... if I were to learn that Midnight Syndicate/Nox Arcana were influenced by black metal or even Mortiis I feel like I would definitely have to rethink things. I mean maybe they were aware of or even fans of that stuff, but influence is a strong word. In my opinion there is a certain kind of solemnity to DS which makes it unique to general fantasy ambient, and I think that's the main thing that was inherited by black metal.
Another trio I've found hard to place are Arcana, Die Verbannten Kinder Evas, and Dargaard, especially because the black metal connection is obviously stronger (at least in the cast of DVKE). I definitely don't think they're DS, but I've never found an explanation for why that seems satisfying...
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Post by Telaestheticist on Sept 24, 2019 1:25:57 GMT -5
I've found these three artists you mention interesting for a long time because of those surface parallels, but yeah never considered them to be DS for the reasons you mention. I don't remember anybody else categorizing them as such either, always only even seen them mentioned in the context of being a neat peripheral thing. Interesting that you bring up how black metal has influenced neoclassical darkwave though... if I were to learn that Midnight Syndicate/Nox Arcana were influenced by black metal or even Mortiis I feel like I would definitely have to rethink things. I mean maybe they were aware of or even fans of that stuff, but influence is a strong word. In my opinion there is a certain kind of solemnity to DS which makes it unique to general fantasy ambient, and I think that's the main thing that was inherited by black metal. Another trio I've found hard to place are Arcana, Die Verbannten Kinder Evas, and Dargaard, especially because the black metal connection is obviously stronger (at least in the cast of DVKE). I definitely don't think they're DS, but I've never found an explanation for why that seems satisfying... I think you've really been able to articulate some of what I've observed as the key difference between "general fantasy ambient" and the solemnity of Dungeon Synth. There is most definitely a somber and almost quietly reverent quality to the genre which resonates with me on a deep level. That said, I also agree with you that there are other artists that can be difficult to quantify - most especially with the aforementioned Black Metal influences. I can definitely speak to Arcana and Dargaard being other borderline artists that have had confusing categorization for me in the past.
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Post by thekeeper on Sept 24, 2019 16:01:57 GMT -5
As it has clearly been discussed at length in this forum, the tone, ambience, and aesthetic of Dungeon Synth can vary significantly from artist to artist. Outside of the typical genre conventions of Dark Fantasy or The Middle Ages, there are also Dungeon Synth albums that incorporate Ancient Egyptian or even Japanese themes and music. But sometimes I find that there is classified Dungeon Synth music that in some way doesn't capture the spirit of Dungeon Synth, and it's not because it uses an unconventional historical setting or cultural theme. A good example of this would be three artists: Midnight Syndicate, the related Nox Arcana, and the more recent Derek & Brandon Fiechter It is worth noting that despite their notoriety, these three artists have rarely been mentioned in Dungeon Synth discussions that I've read These artists (really just the first two) have been referenced as influences in a few conversations I've had with artists, but I agree that they don't come up as often despite sharing a lot with the genre. They seem to always sit at the edge, where lots of people have heard of them, but no one really shares their music with each other the way we share lots of other non-DS music that has come to be affiliated with the genre like some NCDW stuff. I remember hearing about the Fiechter brothers much more back in the early revival days since there were so few DS artists on BC anyway, and they had a good deal of fantasy synth stuff uploaded, so maybe their inclusion is just by thematic proximity on the platform. However, they've had stuff released on Obscure Dungeon Records, so they're definitely not irrelevant. People are listening to them. I've definitely enjoyed some of their stuff, but I listen to it differently. I don't approach it as DS, but maybe that's just painting my perception of it in the first place. If it had a xeroxed j-card for the art, would I feel differently? Who knows. I think the intent is definitely part of it. I can't put my finger on what exactly it is that's missing from these artists, but there's some kind of unspoken/indescribable expressive spirit that's present in DS that's not present in more soundtracky fantasy synth stuff. However, I don't think the logic of this always holds up. Take an artist like DIM who makes very lush, full, and bright music that could easily be the soundtrack for a new video game. Since it's presented within the context of DS, it's taken as such. If it was presented outside of DS, what would we think? Are we biased towards these categories? If the Fiechter brothers changed some song titles, artwork, or maybe took on pseudonyms, I'd be curious to see how that record would be perceived compared to their other stuff that's marketed as theme music. While I do believe there is a personal/spiritual/self-expressive element missing that keeps these artists from the DS categorization, I can't help but wonder to what extend that classification is just based on the perception of what it is. Is it because I know that it's theme music that I say its missing that element? How tangible is that element without knowledge of the visual aesthetics? I feel that blind listens are rare these days, everything comes with the image. Another trio I've found hard to place are Arcana, Die Verbannten Kinder Evas, and Dargaard, especially because the black metal connection is obviously stronger (at least in the cast of DVKE). I definitely don't think they're DS, but I've never found an explanation for why that seems satisfying... These three you hear about much more often than the three Telaestheticist mentioned. Some of the more medieval-industrial NCDW stuff is an odd case (Elend, Pazuzu, Grabesmond, The Soil Bleeds Black, etc), especially someone like Arcana who were label mates with Mortiis at one point. A lot of that CMI stuff sits right on the border of DS for me; sometimes I consider it "dungeon synth for people who don't want to admit they listen to dungeon synth".
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Post by Telaestheticist on Sept 24, 2019 18:40:36 GMT -5
I think the intent is definitely part of it. I can't put my finger on what exactly it is that's missing from these artists, but there's some kind of unspoken/indescribable expressive spirit that's present in DS that's not present in more soundtracky fantasy synth stuff. However, I don't think the logic of this always holds up. Take an artist like DIM who makes very lush, full, and bright music that could easily be the soundtrack for a new video game. Since it's presented within the context of DS, it's taken as such. If it was presented outside of DS, what would we think? Are we biased towards these categories? If the Fiechter brothers changed some song titles, artwork, or maybe took on pseudonyms, I'd be curious to see how that record would be perceived compared to their other stuff that's marketed as theme music. While I do believe there is a personal/spiritual/self-expressive element missing that keeps these artists from the DS categorization, I can't help but wonder to what extend that classification is just based on the perception of what it is. Is it because I know that it's theme music that I say its missing that element? How tangible is that element without knowledge of the visual aesthetics? I feel that blind listens are rare these days, everything comes with the image.These three you hear about much more often than the three Telaestheticist mentioned. Some of the more medieval-industrial NCDW stuff is an odd case (Elend, Pazuzu, Grabesmond, The Soil Bleeds Black, etc), especially someone like Arcana who were label mates with Mortiis at one point. A lot of that CMI stuff sits right on the border of DS for me; sometimes I consider it "dungeon synth for people who don't want to admit they listen to dungeon synth". I think that intent with Dungeon Synth, and many genres for that matter, can be difficult to quantify, which is why I'm glad this topic has encouraged such lively discussion. Speaking for myself as a new Dungeon Synth artist, my own approach is quite different in some respects than other Dungeon Synth artists that I've seen - as is evidenced by the Neoclassical and minimalist aesthetic I'm using on my Bandcamp page currently. I think that you can intend to approach Dungeon Synth with genuine interest and manage to produce something that is outside of the normal conventions of the genre. I think you can also unintentionally tap into Dungeon Synth as a general fantasy ambient artist - as aspects of the artists mentioned in this post have well demonstrated.
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Metachasm
Peasant
First EP in the ideation stage.
Posts: 12
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Post by Metachasm on Sept 24, 2019 19:16:22 GMT -5
Dungeon synth seems to me a marriage of three things: a certain lo-fi production aspect which is minimalist in nature and comes out of the cassette origins of the genre; a certain lo-fi aural aspect because of the usage of synths and ROMplers; and 3rdly a much more difficult to describe style of composition. andrewwerdna refers to solemnity and reverence, both of which are good hallmarks. If you have any two of these aspects, you stay within dungeon synth. Even with one aspect, you are still within dungeon synth: Fief uses older-sounding samples; Trogool has an aspect of reverence to it. Yet, even with one of these aspects, it isn't necessarily "dungeon synth." Dungeon synth is sorta like science fiction: you know it when you hear it. Any fantasy ambience with an aspect of gloom could be taken for dungeon synth, and on a YouTube upload of the soundtrack for Elder Scrolls II: Daggerfall, I see it referred to in one comment as the best dungeon synth album. Yet the chances that Eric Heberling knew of dungeon synth, something that Mortiis (and others) had only just pioneered a couple years ago, an ocean away, seems to be comically low. Here, the aspect is in ROMpler. The best sounding Daggerfall is that which is produced by the Roland SC-55, and the sound of the Sound Canvas series is ideally suited for dungeon synth and for videogame music alike. Trying to define it seems almost too difficult, a task for which no answer is satisfying. Aesthetic? What aesthetic? It's not baroque classical, it's not vgm, it's not dark ambient, it's not ambient, it's not fantasy ambient, it's not rock or pop or jazz, it's not minimalist classical or romantic classical... yet, depending on what you listen to, it's got doses of one or two or three or four of these. That doesn't make it dungeon synth. It makes it film music. Glibness aside... really, you know it when you hear it, and that's really about as far as I can get.
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Post by overfiend on Oct 28, 2019 18:48:20 GMT -5
Something I'd love to see for a Dungeon Synth project would be something inspired by a historical theme outside of the standard medieval or ancient milieu, but still very true to the black metal-influenced solemn aesthetic and atmosphere that most DS albums have.
Personally, if I had the know-how and the equipment to make my own DS project, I'd have it themed around the American Civil War. Or more specifically, a more sinister and possibly occult-tinged version of it. I've always been a Civil War history buff since I was a kid and my ancestors fought in the Union Army during the war. Plus you could get a lot of mileage out of actual photographs from that era. There's just something about those old 1860's era tintype photos that I think would lend itself well to the solemn and somber aesthetic of Dungeon Synth.
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Post by Telaestheticist on Oct 28, 2019 21:17:09 GMT -5
Something I'd love to see for a Dungeon Synth project would be something inspired by a historical theme outside of the standard medieval or ancient milieu, but still very true to the black metal-influenced solemn aesthetic and atmosphere that most DS albums have. Personally, if I had the know-how and the equipment to make my own DS project, I'd have it themed around the American Civil War. Or more specifically, a more sinister and possibly occult-tinged version of it. I've always been a Civil War history buff since I was a kid and my ancestors fought in the Union Army during the war. Plus you could get a lot of mileage out of actual photographs from that era. There's just something about those old 1860's era tintype photos that I think would lend itself well to the solemn and somber aesthetic of Dungeon Synth. One of my favorite Ambient Folk artists is Caleb R.K. Williams. His work is deeply atmospheric and always makes me think of a very somber and melancholic if not haunting version of the Old West. I think that someone could easily use similar musical structures and instrumentation, but using soundfonts or FM synth as Dungeon Synth instead. eaglestone.bandcamp.com/album/selected-worksAs well, there is also Between The Winds by Untamed Land, which is a DS heavy Black Metal album that relies on a Spaghetti Western aesthetic instead of the aforementioned Medieval European Dungeon Synth standard. The instrumentation here could easily be used in a similar context. untamedland.bandcamp.com/album/between-the-winds-2
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Post by crystallogic13 on Oct 30, 2019 9:52:15 GMT -5
As well, there is also Between The Winds by Untamed Land, which is a DS heavy Black Metal album that relies on a Spaghetti Western aesthetic instead of the aforementioned Medieval European Dungeon Synth standard. The instrumentation here could easily be used in a similar context. untamedland.bandcamp.com/album/between-the-winds-2This album received well deserved acclaim .. Really unique in its sound, I didn't really get "DS" vibes from it, I guess you mean the Synths so in that case yes, I didn't even get the Summoning vibes it was supposed to have, but still, one of the best and unique BM records I've heard in a long long time... Sorry for the offtopic..
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Post by Telaestheticist on Oct 30, 2019 10:10:16 GMT -5
As well, there is also Between The Winds by Untamed Land, which is a DS heavy Black Metal album that relies on a Spaghetti Western aesthetic instead of the aforementioned Medieval European Dungeon Synth standard. The instrumentation here could easily be used in a similar context. untamedland.bandcamp.com/album/between-the-winds-2This album received well deserved acclaim .. Really unique in its sound, I didn't really get "DS" vibes from it, I guess you mean the Synths so in that case yes, I didn't even get the Summoning vibes it was supposed to have, but still, one of the best and unique BM records I've heard in a long long time... Sorry for the offtopic.. In fairness, I think it's hard to compare the Western sound in Between The Winds to the largely Medieval sound of Summoning's output, so I'm not surprised if an association with Dungeon Synth can be harder to place. Still, I don't think it's the biggest leap to say that synth parts in a Black Metal project is Dungeon Synth. Furthermore, I think that the synths in Between The Winds do a very good job at encouraging the kind of Fantasy escapism that defines Dungeon Synth and Dungeon Synth influenced music.
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Post by beforedust on Feb 6, 2020 5:52:03 GMT -5
Something I'd love to see for a Dungeon Synth project would be something inspired by a historical theme outside of the standard medieval or ancient milieu, but still very true to the black metal-influenced solemn aesthetic and atmosphere that most DS albums have. I have been enjoying Diplodocus a lot: www.youtube.com/watch?v=YjUhBVkJoMkThe theme seems kinda goofy at first, but it's unique and it's a damn good album, I'm addicted.
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Post by skirmisher on Feb 6, 2020 6:35:29 GMT -5
Dungeon Synth with different sorts of historical settings is a thing for sure. Recent things that come into mind:
Diplodocus - prehistorical dinosaur stuff Vandalorum - The Huns Shogun's Castle - Samurai era Japan
I'm sure there is a lot more if this kinda thing. There has to be Neanderthal/barbarian themed stuff to be found as it would be very fitting and If there isn't, I will do it.
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Post by dungeonsynthzine on Feb 6, 2020 7:04:24 GMT -5
There has to be Neanderthal/barbarian themed stuff to be found as it would be very fitting and If there isn't, I will do it. Barak Tor, Barbaric Frost
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