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Post by Fevegr on Dec 27, 2016 13:19:08 GMT -5
Hello guys, that's my first post here. I'm very glad someone had the iniciative to create this forum, it seems very promissing.
So, to begin with, I would like to say that, although I've been listening to DS music since some fifteen years ago, I have never had much contact with this scene and much of the current views and intents of artists and public who are dedicated to it are unknown to me. But being into Black Metal underground for many years already and knowing that modern DS have deep roots in that genre, I was wondering if people involved with DS can still relate to that spirit of 90's Black Metal, when some people were promoting more transcendental values within their music (through satanic, pagan and occult symbolism, among others) and refusing to take it as mere asthetics, while they were organizing themselves in orders and such to promote their world view. As some of those guys were involved in some way with DS as well, it is possible to say that this approach was, in some ways, also part of DS music at that time (take the post-prison Burzum, for exemple, or consider that Lamentation turned out to become Der Stürmer).
That being said, could you guys see this approach towards music and arts still living somewhere in the current DS scene? Or those last 20 years led it to other paths and understadings?
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Post by outofseason on Dec 27, 2016 14:20:50 GMT -5
Hi, This is an interesting question - but, I think the short answer is "no." DS is almost exclusively centered around fantasy themed artists now. There is still a good number of artists that are rooted in a black metal aesthetic and influenced heavily by this material (Old Tower, Shadow Dungeon, Thangorodrim, Arath, Murgrind, Forgotten Kingdoms, etc etc) but for the most part, that is not the case. Most releases you will find just fantasy themed albums - any religious/pagan/satanist/NS etc artists are a small minority among the crowd.
I understand your question, but I am unable to give an answer as to 'when' exactly the break from more 'extreme' worldviews associated with 90s black metal started; perhaps it was when DS started to actually becomes its own recognized subgenre a few years ago, and not just one that was grouped under Dark Ambient or as side project of black metal artists only.
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Post by andrewwerdna on Dec 27, 2016 22:56:31 GMT -5
This is a very important topic and probably is not discussed enough. I have a lot to say about this, but to be brief I think "transcendental values... refusing to take it as mere aesthetics" is the critical characteristic that distinguishes dungeon synth from other fantasy and synthesizer music, and I think this attitude was inherited directly from black metal, which is why black metal was essential to dungeon synth being born, as disconnected as they might sometimes seem these days.
While I think the spirit is every bit as transcendental as black metal (I personally think it's more consistently transcendental than black metal), the important difference is that the "values" of dungeon synth can't be boiled down to simple ideology. A lot of dungeon synth artists might still hold some extremist political/philosophical views, but they rightfully separate them from the music because the purpose is to escape the ugliness of the world rather than trying to change it, it's just about trying to recapture the forgotten magic. If the violence and extremism of black metal is a reaction to some existential loss we all feel in the modern world, dungeon synth is an attempt to recapture that thing which was lost, staying focused on the vision, and ignoring the current reality rather than trying to fight it.
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Post by shadowcloak on Dec 27, 2016 23:02:34 GMT -5
I personally consider Dungeon Synth to be a sub-genre of black metal, it was born from the minds of black metal musicians and carries a certain feeling that you can't find in any other kind of ambient/synth based music.
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Post by outofseason on Dec 28, 2016 12:46:20 GMT -5
This is a very important topic and probably is not discussed enough. I have a lot to say about this, but to be brief I think "transcendental values... refusing to take it as mere aesthetics" is the critical characteristic that distinguishes dungeon synth from other fantasy and synthesizer music, and I think this attitude was inherited directly from black metal, which is why black metal was essential to dungeon synth being born, as disconnected as they might sometimes seem these days. While I think the spirit is every bit as transcendental as black metal (I personally think it's more consistently transcendental than black metal), the important difference is that the "values" of dungeon synth can't be boiled down to simple ideology. A lot of dungeon synth artists might still hold some extremist political/philosophical views, but they rightfully separate them from the music because the purpose is to escape the ugliness of the world rather than trying to change it, it's just about trying to recapture the forgotten magic. If the violence and extremism of black metal is a reaction to some existential loss we all feel in the modern world, dungeon synth is an attempt to recapture that thing which was lost, staying focused on the vision, and ignoring the current reality rather than trying to fight it. very well said andrew!
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Post by Fevegr on Dec 29, 2016 18:01:51 GMT -5
Thank you for your answers, they are all very interesting.
So would you say that current Dungeon Synth in general connects itself to some transcendental principles and promotes them through its music, imagery, etc. but doesn't take a stand to affirm them beyond music itself? And that a important difference towards early Black Metal would be this refusal to deal with reality, considering the scene as whole, even if some artists within DS scene have a different approach in their private lives?
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Post by Verminaard on Dec 29, 2016 19:37:08 GMT -5
Hello! Perhaps I can answer from an artist's perspective, though I only speak for my own project, Verminaard, and obviously not the scene as a whole.
I keep any political, religious, etc worldviews often associated with black metal completely eschewed from my music. I take much influence from the early practitioners of the genre, but only musically, and not in theme. I do not focus on reality, as it were, as I see my music as more of a type of story telling. I simply want to create worlds for listeners to become lost in.
I'd say that myself and a large majority of current dungeon synth artists try our best to block out all of the crap going on in the real world by simply going to a fantasy one with our music, but again, I can only surely speak for myself. "I reject your reality and substitute my own" type of idea, if you will.
While you'll find that most dungeon synth fans are also black metal fans, the genres are much more separated than they used to be. Some people are solely interested in dungeon synth and don't care about black metal, etc.
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Post by andrewwerdna on Dec 30, 2016 7:02:07 GMT -5
Thank you for your answers, they are all very interesting. So would you say that current Dungeon Synth in general connects itself to some transcendental principles and promotes them through its music, imagery, etc. but doesn't take a stand to affirm them beyond music itself? And that a important difference towards early Black Metal would be this refusal to deal with reality, considering the scene as whole, even if some artists within DS scene have a different approach in their private lives? I'm not sure I fully understand this question. I don't know how you define "transcendental principles," but I personally consider the moment of listening and feeling transported to a wholly new world, one which you've never experienced before and never will again until you listen to the album, to be transcendental. I mean, look at the definition of transcendental: "of or relating to a spiritual or nonphysical realm." If ds is at all successful in its intents wouldn't a sort of transcendence be necessarily achieved? So to break it down: Is DS transcendental? Yes Does it differ from BM by not applying DS values to reality? Yes. DS ideally has nothing to do with reality in the same way that Tolkien doesn't. These are the values of high fantasy. Dungeon synth shares the highest aspirations as Crispy Cornflakes himself, Now where I really misunderstand you is where you say "if some artists within DS scene have a different approach in their private lives..." A different approach from what? Dungeon synth does not promote any specific lifestyle values. Perhaps it inadvertently promotes introversion and spirituality, but those things are far from specific action.
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Post by andrewwerdna on Dec 30, 2016 7:15:15 GMT -5
I really want someone to argue with me about this, haha.
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Post by Fevegr on Dec 30, 2016 17:32:02 GMT -5
I am sorry I didn't express myself clearly enough, but I think you have hit the mark with your answers anyway. I will try to explain more clearly what I meant and share some of my own views on the matter.
Maybe the term "transcendental" was not the best choice. The creation of this thread was motivated by my experience with the BM scene and my understanding of its early goals. In fact, I believe the current BM scene, with the exception of a few individuals, degenerated into plain entertainment, meaningless aesthetics and consumerism. There is very little interest in anything spiritual or philosophical left, to the point that there's even hostility when you try to touch such matters in a discussion. I wanted to know if the DS scene had taken the same road as the BM scene, towards a more materialistic and entertainment approach, and by reading your answers I would say "no", it has not.
I disagree, however, that high fantasy has nothing to do with reality. I am glad Tolkien was mentioned. As a Professor in Germanic Philology who had a deep knowledge of Pagan religion and of European folklore, Tolkien's legendarium was deeply rooted on real-life Pagan myths and European traditions. There are countless examples to be found in the creation of his myths and characters, but I would like to focus on another point. Andrew said in his first post that DS is “about trying to recapture the forgotten magic”. For me, the magic of a fantastical world resides in the fact that everything in the material world has a meaning beyond the mundane and ordinary: a tree is not just an ordinary tree made of plain matter, and so is everything in Middle-earth. The same applies to the Pagan perspective. Everything around man – as well as man himself – was part of a “magical” world, and material reality revealed itself in a (there comes the word again…) transcendental way: the trees, mountains, rivers, they all had spirits; every daily act was sanctioned by the example of a god who performed the very same act in the “other world”, in a mythical time and place, linking the mundane reality to a higher sphere. The reality of our societies is degrading and depressing because those “magical” meanings were lost, only the mundane and ordinary were left. Art, in this context, should have as a goal to blur the strict division between material reality and “magical”/transcendental reality; art should promote a revitalization of the “lost magic” in material reality, should take us back to what once was.
It is great that forms of art such as BM and DS promote this even inadvertently. But it would be more effective if this goal was pursued consciously. Attempts were made in BM scene back in the 90’s, even if in an imperfect form that ultimately failed. I think Tolkien's artistic endeavors promoted this as well, in its own way. I understand his books less as escapism and more as a kind of manifesto on how we could deal with a reality that is being deprived of all its meaning. Tolkien's creation was not disconnected from reality and his books and his fantastical world serves as a point of departure for a new evaluation of our own reality – a decadent and ugly reality, as a land infested of orcs whose delight is to subdue nature with heavy spiritless machinery, ultimately because it is devoid of any spirit, of anything beyond matter.
P.S.: Perhaps my attempt at clarifying my point made it even more confusing, lol. I am not used to write down these thoughts, so it comes slowly and with difficulty. But I think that it's an important point that has to be made.
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Post by andrewwerdna on Dec 31, 2016 8:35:37 GMT -5
Ok, I think the clearest point on which we disagree is whether Tolkien is escapist. Well, I mean, Tolkien considers himself to be escapist, so if Tolkien isn't escapist who is? It's not a derogatory term. That's the only specific real-world value dungeon synth ideally intends to put forth, imo. Of course it will reflect the real world in all sorts of ways. For instance, a clear parallel can be drawn from WWII to LOTR, but Tolkien adamantly denies this. And if you question whether it might've influenced his vision in at least a subconscious way (of course it did), then you are not "suspending your disbelief," and so you could never hope to appreciate it in its fully glory. I think high fantasy, ultimately, intends to be timeless. And so the only "reality" it intends to relate to is that of the forms or the collective unconscious, or any other idealistic spirit-realm you can entertain the existence of. - On Fairy Stories
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Post by glamhoth on Jan 3, 2017 10:17:45 GMT -5
I don't think the point is whether Tolkien was an escapist or not. I think what Fevegr is bringing up would be more in line with a reassessment of the very concept of "escapism".
There's a difference between being ok with the reality around you and using fantasy as mere entertainment, and perceiving the reality around as something oppressive and using fantasy as an escape. The latter implies some form of allegiance to values and a worldview that aren't in accordance to those established in reality.
When Fevegr calls our society "degrading and depressing" and our reality "decadent and ugly", it echoes Tolkien when he talks about "Disgust, Anger, Condemnation, and Revolt" in the quote.
I think the real question would be: is "escapism" in DS oriented towards mere entertainment, a hobby pursued by people who are comfortable with things the way they are, passive prisoners who tolerate well the chains around their necks as long as they can pretend they are free every once in a while, or is it escapism motivated by rejection of the established norms, something active and combative, a fantasy that ultimately seeks to break the chains and realize itself in reality... ?
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Post by andrewwerdna on Jan 4, 2017 9:08:06 GMT -5
Ok, excellent, that means we're mostly in agreement. If you guys agree with these three points then I think anything else would be splitting hairs:
1. Dungeon synth is escapist.
2. Tolkien is escapist.
3. Dungeon synth is escapist in the way that Tolkien is escapist.
I'm not saying one cannot learn something from escapist art that is applicable in the real world. But these values (when truly escapist) are only expressed in the form of subcreation. For example, the whole Ents vs Isengard thing strongly communicated a value of environmental conservation, but that was a far cry away from "Curb carbon emissions in the name of Middle-Earth!" I think when there's a conscious attempt to promote ideology (as black metal often does) the work suffers a severe loss of transportative strength.
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Post by glamhoth on Jan 5, 2017 11:21:05 GMT -5
(...) Every daily act was sanctioned by the example of a god who performed the very same act in the “other world”, in a mythical time and place, linking the mundane reality to a higher sphere.
I believe this excerpt is very relevant, even if obscure. Originally, human beings perceived reality as something directly connected to a higher order. There was a direct link to the eternal, every act in the mundane temporal reality had an immediate echo in eternity. The "god" performing an act in the myth, in this sense, served as a link between the individual temporal human being and the eternal circle.* We modern human beings, however, are disconnected from this circle. We have been for a really long time, and this disconnection has left its mark upon our modern ways. That's why we find this clear division between the principle expressed in the myth -- the act of a "god" -- and temporal human life. The eternal or "transcendental" truths found in (intuited from?) myth or fantasy, in this context, become "escapism". But what are we are trying to escape from? People can't answer that question, most of them don't even bother asking it. The way our minds came to work and the way we were educated to think prevent us from going there. Concepts are applied like labels and things are given a place in reality, and this arrangement is mistakenly taken for reality itself. But it's something shallow and arbitrary, a pseudo-reality. You have to dig deeper to find the keys to the gates. There was a time when "consuming" music in the formats available was something I pursued. I am "old-school" (i.e. old and out of touch), back in my time --late 90s and early 00s -- there was no such thing as DS as a genre, we had "ambient" (aka as "darkwave" and "neoclassical"), a "genre" closely related to BM. This kind of music was often intended as "revolutionary" and "spiritual". People talked a lot about archetypes and philosophy and promised it was just the beginning of something huge, but that never went beyond all the talk and soon became stagnated, turning into just another niche market for music consumers. BM these days is just depressing. It's even more brain-dead than all metal that came before it, and yet extremely pompous, pretentious and reactionary. DS, being a genre free of the rock'n'roll ethos, something more cerebral, is naturally inclined to fantasies that are more meaningful than that of the hedonistic "rockstar". The question remains, however, how far the genre is capable and/or willing to go in terms of a rupture with the established "reality". I'm not talking a political or ecological revolution, I mean a "spiritual" revolution which is all-encompassing, that starts with escaping the mental and spiritual prisons we find ourselves in and eventually extends itself to all spheres of existence. *I believe Mircea Eliade develops this concept of man's actions mirroring the actions of the gods, but I'm not sure exactly where. Perhaps Fevegr can enlighten us on the matter.
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Post by andrewwerdna on Jan 6, 2017 6:55:49 GMT -5
I've never read Mircea Eliade, but I've heard his name referenced a lot in association with this theory of God directly speaking to us prior to early civilization. I'm not sure I've heard the reasoning behind this, but I think it's a pretty good way to describe how intensely different the psychological framework would be in the state of nature opposed to modernity. I couldn't say for sure what this difference would've been, but I think it was probably more fulfilling, considering that was the state that our minds had long-evolved to inhabit. But of course there's no going back. Even in music and spirituality there's no going back, but what we can do is speculate and go elsewhere, and from many different vantage points we might get a clearer picture of what's missing.
As far as a "spiritual revolution that is all-encompassing," well you'd have to be more specific about "all-encompassing," but for many people I think dungeon synth is already quite spiritual inherently (again in the way that Tolkien could be considered by some as spiritual). Any sort of revolution I think would just be a matter of more people coming to appreciate the vision, rather than some new artist appearing who surpasses Mortiis.
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