Does dungeon synth require a black metal connection?

[andrewwerdna]

My thinking for a long time has been that dungeon synth needs at least some sort of lineage back to black metal, no matter how distant, to be a distinct recognizeable thing. So if one is inspired by a DS artist, who was inspired by an earlier DS artist, who was inspired by black metal, then that still counts. But Glenn Danzig - Black Aria, for example, would not count, and that seems strange to me because aesthetically it's right there.

But in a brief exchange with Mike Moth on Facebook some months ago, he convinced me that the broadly-understood definition of dungeon synth has changed. I think there is not too much lost in accepting this because it would be easy just to distinguish "dark dungeon music" as the thing strictly requiring black metal lineage, and "dungeon synth" just meaning whatever is organically understood by convention.

I'm a bit out of touch, but I feel like there are a lot of differing opinions about this.

[bartizanier]

Its an interesting question that resonates with so much of the dungeon synth sphere today, which as we know is full of a kaleidoscope of artists and sub-genres, so to speak.
It seems to me that the pure and original spirit of dungeon synth is strongly rooted in black metal aesthetics and emotions.
Just for myself however, I tend to enjoy a fairly narrow range of dungeon synth which falls outside those boundaries - I gravitate towards more colorful, fantasy-inspired, classic RPG game style music (don't confuse this with chiptune however).
I also think that a world of simply black-and-white, corpse paint, midnight forest dungeon synth would become boring and monotonous very quickly.
So, I don't know the answer to the question. I prefer to not approach the genre in black-and-white terms (pun not intended), I enjoy all the color, variety, and ultimately the choice that gives as listeners.

[doomed]

Dungeon Synth does share a lot with Black Metal, but I feel it has enough of an identity to stand as its own thing. Dungeon Synth just exists within a "neighborhood" of genres that share many similarities even beyond their sound. As a result there is a lot of overlapping of features between Dungeon Synth and Black Metal, such as aesthetic, sound and themes. But it is entirely possible to have Dungeon Synth that takes more inspiration from its other neighbors such as Dark Ambient, Neo-Folk, Drone, etc. and none from Black Metal.

Something that Dungeon Synth shares with Black metal is that both genres are extremely synergistic with experimental ideas. I know not everyone likes when a genre branches out into so many sub-genres, but for me that's what makes both special. There's something for everyone and they're very approachable for new people wanting to create music within them. Hell, both genres reward those raw, barely mixed closet recordings made with old equipment you have lying around.

[calignosia]

Well, there is no doubt that in the beginning of dungeon synth there is a strong connection with black metal, to the point that without black metal we probably wouldn't be talking about dungeon synth today. On the other hand I think that dungeon synth since its revitalization has lost part of the connection with black metal being a more heterogeneous genre and that many people have come to it exclusively from electronic music.

[vandus]

Aside from the genre itself being in a way spawned by black metal, I think DS as a standalone genre does not need any connection to BM but some really cool DS seems to be inspired by or borrow from BM pieces. In my mind it's broken off from BM and taken inspiration from all sorts of places, like old-school D&D tracks and niche fantasy media of the 70s and 80s.

[enkyrtheaneroxic]

I've been wondering about this for a while too! I found out about Dungeon Synth through Black Metal, but simultaneously I really enjoy the variety that modern DS-projects bring to the table.
I feel like DS has reached a point where it has achieved its own recognizable identity, and this identity is definitely not completely defined by black metal influences, musically or aesthetically.
That being said, the scenes are still very much intertwined, and as such, I don't think the bm-connections are going anywhere anytime soon.

[Mike Moth]

Something else I've been wondering about lately is if Dungeon Synth is starting to stretch past its Dark Ambient roots now. So much, especially on the more epic and cinematic side, isn't really that ambient at all anymore.

[andrewwerdna]

Aug 5, 2024 10:45:45 GMT -5 Mike Moth said:

Something else I've been wondering about lately is if Dungeon Synth is starting to stretch past its Dark Ambient roots now. So much, especially on the more epic and cinematic side, isn't really that ambient at all anymore.

I feel like there is sort of precedent for that though, like the Stargate is pretty cinematic and not so ambient.

[Mike Moth]

Aug 6, 2024 10:41:33 GMT -5 andrewwerdna said:

I feel like there is sort of precedent for that though, like the Stargate is pretty cinematic and not so ambient.

Good point. I guess DS has been a bit of a chimerical beast from the beginning.

[Pilgrim's Shadow]

It might be that i don't understand the question, but i think it very much depends on ones relation with the genre of music. I don't experience DS as separate from BM, not even the slightest. I mean, it's true that these are different genres and instruments instruments. It also depends on which BM subgenre we speak of. Ultimately, when i am in need of a "fix", both DS and BM can fill that slot. Also other genres of music that can be considered "DS" even though has nothing to do with it in the sense that the composer didn't knew of DS or BM, still fill in that slot.

[moreteeth]

Aug 1, 2024 23:03:00 GMT -5 andrewwerdna said:

My thinking for a long time has been that dungeon synth needs at least some sort of lineage back to black metal, no matter how distant, to be a distinct recognizable thing. So if one is inspired by a DS artist, who was inspired by an earlier DS artist, who was inspired by black metal, then that still counts. But Glenn Danzig - Black Aria, for example, would not count, and that seems strange to me because aesthetically it's right there.

But in a brief exchange with Mike Moth on Facebook some months ago, he convinced me that the broadly-understood definition of dungeon synth has changed. I think there is not too much lost in accepting this because it would be easy just to distinguish "dark dungeon music" as the thing strictly requiring black metal lineage, and "dungeon synth" just meaning whatever is organically understood by convention.

I'm a bit out of touch, but I feel like there are a lot of differing opinions about this.

I mean, it is part of the history; at the same time, however—and I think this is what you're getting at—the name "dungeon synth" precludes its lineage, so anything that's broadly related to dungeons or synths can be considered dungeon synth, regardless of its origin. I mean, can you trace all that dinosaur themed dungeon synth back to black metal? Maybe you could, but it'd be like saying that black metal needs to claim obvious lineage from the blues for it to be distinct and recognizable. To me, the only thing that abstractly binds dungeon synth and black metal together is that they're both, for a lack of a better term, "gimmicky" experiences. Dinosaur and fantasy themed dungeon synth are completely unrelated, but both are "themed" in a cohesive way, and in such a way where neither can really transcend its own genre; similarly, black metal is also very "themed," and can't really change, because, frankly, its musical substance really isn't that interesting or applicable outside of its own space in the culture, which is why I find acts like Sunbather less impressive than some people I know. They're not fickle or malleable things; both provide a very particular and specialized feeling.

There's a very distinct aesthetic separation between a love letter and a deconstruction, and it seems to me that dungeon synth and black metal are incapable of deconstruction. It makes sense why there are so many "purists" around here, at least in comparison to other genres: it's all an ongoing simulation and idealization of the past. None of this is bad, of course, because the limited scope is just ontological to what the makes the genre a good thing in the first place, but there are still rules. 

[andrewwerdna]

Sept 8, 2024 19:02:00 GMT -5 moreteeth said:

I mean, it is part of the history; at the same time, however—and I think this is what you're getting at—the name "dungeon synth" precludes its lineage, so anything that's broadly related to dungeons or synths can be considered dungeon synth, regardless of its origin. I mean, can you trace all that dinosaur themed dungeon synth back to black metal? Maybe you could, but it'd be like saying that black metal needs to claim obvious lineage from the blues for it to be distinct and recognizable. To me, the only thing that abstractly binds dungeon synth and black metal together is that they're both, for a lack of a better term, "gimmicky" experiences. Dinosaur and fantasy themed dungeon synth are completely unrelated, but both are "themed" in a cohesive way, and in such a way where neither can really transcend its own genre; similarly, black metal is also very "themed," and can't really change, because, frankly, its musical substance really isn't that interesting or applicable outside of its own space in the culture, which is why I find acts like Sunbather less impressive than some people I know. They're not fickle or malleable things; both provide a very particular and specialized feeling.

There's a very distinct aesthetic separation between a love letter and a deconstruction, and it seems to me that dungeon synth and black metal are incapable of deconstruction. It makes sense why there are so many "purists" around here, at least in comparison to other genres: it's all an ongoing simulation and idealization of the past. None of this is bad, of course, because the limited scope is just ontological to what the makes the genre a good thing in the first place, but there are still rules. 

I disagree that the only thing binding black metal and dark dungeon music is specific gimmicky theming, those things are just signifiers and don't get at the heart of the stuff imo. I think the primary thing both share is an attitude which is like an intense discontentment with the world and feeling that something fundamental is missing. They are both addressing the same need but in different ways, mediums for misanthropic outcasts to express themselves and feel not so alone. It is more than just a genre for a lot of people, and that is why they can get upset and protective when they perceive that outsiders are coming in and changing things.

But I think those sorts of misanthropic emotions and cathartic escapism can sometimes be a self-perpetuating thing, and so is not so healthy to remain in that mental state just for the purposes of keeping active with a music scene. And so I think it is a good thing that DS has evolved to accomodate not just the tormented outcasts but also people who are relatively neurotypical and able to just have fun making some weird lofi medieval fantasy music. We don't want to trap ourselves in the dark dungeons, but we should also not wander too far afield lest we lose our way back to the sanctuary.

So basically there are still rules, but I think we can't rely on the objective black metal connection anymore, so instead the best we got is just a "know it when you hear it" kind of thing, like how "goth" music is vaguely defined.

Also I'm curious why you think DS can't be deconstructed? I would say it often is, and often to good effect. Doesn't your recent Conjuration of Evil EP deconstruct it by using acoustic instruments?

[Stéphane F.]

" I think the primary thing both share is an attitude which is like an intense discontentment with the world and feeling that something fundamental is missing. They are both addressing the same need but in different ways, mediums for misanthropic outcasts to express themselves and feel not so alone."

There is another thing. Black metal and dungeon synth have a very punk feel. Neither virtuosity nor thousands of dollars spent on top-notch equipment and mixing are values. I already knew "high profile" bands like Dead Can Dance, but when I discovered DS I felt a tremendous sense of freedom, I felt I had the "right" to launch myself into music, in defiance of technique, virtuosity and even simple good taste, in defiance of everything in the music world that resembled an injunction to be a professional with professional gear.

[andrewwerdna]

Sept 12, 2024 11:09:40 GMT -5 Stéphane F. said:

There is another thing. Black metal and dungeon synth have a very punk feel. Neither virtuosity nor thousands of dollars spent on top-notch equipment and mixing are values. I already knew "high profile" bands like Dead Can Dance, but when I discovered DS I felt a tremendous sense of freedom, I felt I had the "right" to launch myself into music, in defiance of technique, virtuosity and even simple good taste, in defiance of everything in the music world that resembled an injunction to be a professional with professional gear.

I agree, I think that veneration of rough unpolished production and unsophisticated songwriting is integral to the spirit of both genres, and is not just an aesthetic thing. I remember also getting that feeling listening to BM and DS thinking "this is great and I could make something like this!" It is very inspiring.

[vandus]

Sept 12, 2024 23:01:02 GMT -5 andrewwerdna said:

Sept 12, 2024 11:09:40 GMT -5 Stéphane F. said:

There is another thing. Black metal and dungeon synth have a very punk feel. Neither virtuosity nor thousands of dollars spent on top-notch equipment and mixing are values. I already knew "high profile" bands like Dead Can Dance, but when I discovered DS I felt a tremendous sense of freedom, I felt I had the "right" to launch myself into music, in defiance of technique, virtuosity and even simple good taste, in defiance of everything in the music world that resembled an injunction to be a professional with professional gear.

I agree, I think that veneration of rough unpolished production and unsophisticated songwriting is integral to the spirit of both genres, and is not just an aesthetic thing. I remember also getting that feeling listening to BM and DS thinking "this is great and I could make something like this!" It is very inspiring.

Piggybacking here to echo that sentiment that one of the hallmarks of this genre is accessibility.

A curse and a boon, as the low bar for entry allows a lot of shallow contributions. But on the flip side you get to see some really sincere and interesting works born out of love for the genre and for making cool music and art. I think DS, no matter what ties or subgenre influence a piece can carry, is stamped by that sincere and authentic feeling.

I sort of see us as a siblinghood of musicians that want to craft something niche and esoteric in a sense. It's a very freeing community to be a part of.