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Post by thekeeper on May 4, 2017 9:51:50 GMT -5
Fuck it. I'm adding it to the list. It should be our sort of ordeal poison, right-of-passage, shamanic initiation album. You're not a genuine dungeoneer until you've listened to this thing from beginning to end. And considering that it was at this point that he basically conceived of the idea of full dungeon albums, I think this was a foundationally critical work. My concern was that by allowing this demo, I'd have to necessarily include the many other classic 90's demos. However I think I'm going to utilize a different criteria on this list than just "full-length." The criteria will be of ds artists who were not directly influenced by previous ds artists. "DS artists" in this sense will be artists who conceived of full-albums of the pure dungeon mood, which is why Burzum (and other BM) intros, interludes, and outros do not qualify, but which is also why Summoning does qualify because even though aesthetically the Summoning albums were thoroughly black metal, they were also thoroughly DS, more so than many pure DS albums. That's how I feel about it as well. I don't really care for rites of passage or 'fan stipulations' of sorts (hence essentials rather than required, subjectively), but listening to Song at least once through just seems inherent to DS somehow. It's more of discussion about whether or not Lost Tales in particular helped build or define the genre. Lost Tales is an awesome EP, but I don't feel that it really did anything for DS in particular, at least not as much as Dol Goldur or something. It came out fairly late too, Summoning had already established their sound and it was just a smaller all-synth EP. Recommended? Sure, but not essential. It's not that it broke off too much by adding these extra elements or these elements in particular dequalify or knock the dungeon-level down some notches, because I think Wongraven is absolutely essential as well, it just seems like Stargate is maybe a bit besides what's needed, if that makes sense. If someone hasn't heard Stargate, what's the level of detriment to the whole picture of DS? Thinking about it more, I guess we could include it on the grounds that it expanded early DS sound a bit more by kind of saying "this doesn't have to be synth alone", same with Wongraven. Howeverrr, do we need Stargate if we have Wongraven if it's serving the same representational purpose of "DS can have singing and other stuff"? I guess actually I don't really care, Stargate's fine. It's his best in the eyes of a lot of people and it was his most successful album out of his early stuff. 10-15 seems like too little. Your blog list is already at 13, and that's like only hard classic foundations. I feel some newer stuff is necessary in the list. If we only include 90s releases, I don't think people are getting a full grasp. I would include either Trolldom or Kyndill og Steinn by Lord Lovidicus, an Abandoned Places album (tough debate for which one), and Erang's Tome I. It's weird to not have heard Mortiis or Burzum's prison albums, but it's also weird to me to not have heard LL, AP, or Erang. For other 90s releases, I'd include Lamentation's Fullmoon, Forgotten Pathways' Shrouded, Cernunnos Woods' Tears, and Depressive Silence's Mourning (I know you don't like it as much as the general DS scene does, but it's undeniably a major inspiration point for a huge portion of newer artists).
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Post by curwenius on May 4, 2017 13:14:50 GMT -5
I definitely understand this position, and am quite torn on whether to put it back on the list. Speaking from personal experience, when I was first getting into DS (in the mid 00's), this kind of music was nearly impossible to find apart from the projects listed here so far. The Mortiis side-projects however were relatively easy to find, since you could discover them just by researching Mortiis. So for me this album was rather critical in my understanding of this music as a genre, of many different faces, rather than an expression of one project. I imagine the experience might've been similar for Curwenius, who has been a fan/artist of this style for quite a long time. How did you first discover Cintecele Diavolui, Curwenius? The first time I ever heard about Mortiis was in 1999, when Stargate appeared in the CD store that I used to visit. Eventually, the guy who run the store (now a long time friend), as I was ecstatic with Mortiis, was able to get all previous Mortiis albums. As he realized that it was not enough for me, he told me about other Mortiis side projects, such as Fata Morgana, Vond and, of course, Cintecele Diavolui. I found all of them different but anyway close to the main Mortiis project, and I automatically considered them as belonging to the same genre, except for Vond "Green Eyed Demon". When I read the list that you posted as canon, and I saw that you left Green Eyed Demon out of the list, my appreciation about this album (and the others) was confirmed. I personally think that Mortiis is the main (if not the only) founder of the genre (despite the many contemporary artists that were in a similar musical line), so my opinion is that every Mortiis composition should be in the list, except for the album mentioned above. Regarding to adding more recent names to the list, I find really difficult to separate what is an essential and what is a really good DS album. Additionaly, do you guys think that there is a dark age of DS between the end of Mortiis era I and 2010? Am I missing something?
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Post by thekeeper on May 4, 2017 13:45:12 GMT -5
Additionaly, do you guys think that there is a dark age of DS between the end of Mortiis era I and 2010? Am I missing something? There's certainly a lapse of actual DS albums in the 2000s. While there aren't a lot of 'purely DS' albums, there are some good ones but not too many that are held to be all that important until the last few years of the '00s. Here's the RYM list from 2000 on. Before 2007 there was some stuff from Mistigo Vargoth Darkestra, Arthur, Lord Wind, Corvus Neblus, Aardia, Taur Nu Fuin, Trollmann, Mitternacht, Lost Tales by Summoning, Dark Ages, but then once 2007 came, Darkstroll, Morketsvind, Forgotten Land, and Myrrdin release albums and then things really start picking up in 2009 and 2010 with Lord Lovidicus and then DS is actually coined in 2011. So yeah, I guess the 2000s are like the DS dark ages in terms of released material. When you read interviews or conversations with people talking about influences, there aren't many influences from stuff between 2000-2008, if they do mention something from this period it's either Lord Wind or Hate Forest's Temple Forest (Arthur's Blackstarblood, more accurately). Taur Nu Fuin is very canonical and pure DS though, and still quite popular. Their first EP was from 2003.
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Post by lilac on May 4, 2017 14:36:01 GMT -5
Here is another thought(s)... At this point we are essentially backtracking and filling in gaps. Looking at what was an aesthetic music idea in the past and categorising it with music it influenced.(unless the term Dungeon Synth goes back much farther than I though.. I know of "dark dungeon music" as a label, but to be thought of as a genre) The path seems to have followed Black Metal influenced medieval fantasy music, but what about music coming from a different direction that came to a similar final sound. I'm thinking of selections from some neo-folk acts, militaristic industrial, other "post-industrial" musics and even artists influenced by 70s soundtrack work. Now when I think about it... Mortiis spent a lot more time with synthesizer music than he did in Black Metal, so if he is considered a father of this style could it actually be that he was drawing the same or similar influences that artists who would never otherwise even be considered for the list.
OK... I recognise I could be dragging this off topic, but I'm personally putting things together.. I was a fan of Black Metal, Industrial, noise etc. in the 90 and on, and am now just seeing things that to me were anomalies (thinking Moriis here again) having a name associated to it.
Where does something like the Moon Lay Hidden Beneath a Cloud fit in..? on paper it checks all the right boxes, but I wouldn't say as a whole they fit the genre.
Thanks for indulging my brain dump. :-P
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Post by Morannon on May 4, 2017 16:59:27 GMT -5
Avox - Desolate Land Undervalued and unknown old school dungeon synth. Great melodies and nice sound
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Post by Darnziak on May 4, 2017 18:01:12 GMT -5
When I discovered Summoning in the 90s, I felt that « Nightshade Forests » was just a continuation of « Dol Guldur », tracks that couldn't fit on the album because it was too long (78 mins, I think), but were not lesser in quality at all. It was as well known and has readily available as the other albums, so I think it's their equal. I'd even argue that it's more essential than « Stronghold ». When this one came out in 99 I recall that I was disappointed, because I thought the guitars were too loud, too aggressive, the keyboard melodies too much in the background, the keyboard sounds were too « heavy », something was lost of the old spirit of Summoning. (It's my least favorite album of theirs.) I'm just using my perspective as someone who discovered the old DS sound back in the day (in the late 90s), and who really loves it when I find it again today. (For example I was listening to Murgrind the other day and I thought « that's exactly the old Summoning feeling!») This perspective would be useful to recreate a list of « essentials for a newcomer », I think. I agree that Mortiis' The Song of a Long Forgotten Ghost should be included. When I discovered Mortiis later (2010 I think). I didn't like Stargate at all, I felt it was too bombastic, cheesy, it lost the old and distant feeling I wanted, the equivalent of Stronghold for Summoning. When I downloaded the TSOLFG demo, I absolutely loved the « old » feeling of it, even if it's atrociously repetitive and simple. Yes, every DS fan should listen to it at least once, the « rite of passage » idea is cool! (BTW Andrew Werdna, thanks a lot for your blog, I've been a reader since the very beggining, which was just after I discovered Mortiis myself and wanted to find more music in the genre. In 2011-2012 there was nothing else about that stuff on the whole internet!)
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Post by andrewwerdna on May 5, 2017 9:05:04 GMT -5
It's not that it broke off too much by adding these extra elements or these elements in particular dequalify or knock the dungeon-level down some notches, because I think Wongraven is absolutely essential as well, it just seems like Stargate is maybe a bit besides what's needed, if that makes sense. If someone hasn't heard Stargate, what's the level of detriment to the whole picture of DS? Thinking about it more, I guess we could include it on the grounds that it expanded early DS sound a bit more by kind of saying "this doesn't have to be synth alone", same with Wongraven. Howeverrr, do we need Stargate if we have Wongraven if it's serving the same representational purpose of "DS can have singing and other stuff"? I guess actually I don't really care, Stargate's fine. It's his best in the eyes of a lot of people and it was his most successful album out of his early stuff. While I certainly wouldn't call it his best, I think it explores very new territory than the previous albums while still staying within the borders of the genre. And not just new territory in the sense of singing, acoustic instruments, and film samples, but the entire mood I feel wandered further into the unknown. It's every bit as important as the preceding albums I think. This list on the blog is not meant to show a full picture of the genre, just the initial roots. There's no reason why we can't do further lists in this thread. But this list I'm working on now is just meant to be the albums to which all the other DS albums can be traced back to. The other demos at the time, I think, were all primarily influenced by the full-length DS albums. This list is supposed to be the albums that first opened the doors. I think these albums sort of granted permission to expand the intros, interludes, and outros into full albums. Also, I hope I didn't say disliked Depressive Silence at any point because I never have. It's some of the best there is. I actually considered adding it to the list, because I know how much influence it wields (at least these days). Same with Lamentation. However along with these demos are numerous others of equal importance, which would at least triple the size of it currently, and they are ALL influenced by at least one of the albums already listed. I do want to say though I've never liked Cernunnos Woods-Tears of the Weeping Willow. I would not add it to a list like this at all. The first time I ever heard about Mortiis was in 1999, when Stargate appeared in the CD store that I used to visit. Eventually, the guy who run the store (now a long time friend), as I was ecstatic with Mortiis, was able to get all previous Mortiis albums. As he realized that it was not enough for me, he told me about other Mortiis side projects, such as Fata Morgana, Vond and, of course, Cintecele Diavolui. I found all of them different but anyway close to the main Mortiis project, and I automatically considered them as belonging to the same genre, except for Vond "Green Eyed Demon". When I read the list that you posted as canon, and I saw that you left Green Eyed Demon out of the list, my appreciation about this album (and the others) was confirmed. I personally think that Mortiis is the main (if not the only) founder of the genre (despite the many contemporary artists that were in a similar musical line), so my opinion is that every Mortiis composition should be in the list, except for the album mentioned above. Regarding to adding more recent names to the list, I find really difficult to separate what is an essential and what is a really good DS album. Additionaly, do you guys think that there is a dark age of DS between the end of Mortiis era I and 2010? Am I missing something? That sounds like it was a damn cool cd store. I totally agree about Green Eyed Demon, I didn't include it in my old list either. I don't like it, but I think it's not DS at all so maybe it's just not for me. This post convinced me that Cintecele Diavolui should definitely be on here. It was a totally different take on the formula, one which has been widely experienced since it was first released, though I think its influence might just be somewhat more subtle. So you think Vond-Selvmord and Vond-The Dark River should be on the list as well? To me the ideas of the albums seem too rooted in reality to be essential. I'd say there was a bit of a dark age in the 00's, especially in awareness, which makes the few active DS artists from that period all the more important. But Summoning was the only one really carrying the torch that all could see. Here is another thought(s)... At this point we are essentially backtracking and filling in gaps. Looking at what was an aesthetic music idea in the past and categorising it with music it influenced.(unless the term Dungeon Synth goes back much farther than I though.. I know of "dark dungeon music" as a label, but to be thought of as a genre) The path seems to have followed Black Metal influenced medieval fantasy music, but what about music coming from a different direction that came to a similar final sound. I'm thinking of selections from some neo-folk acts, militaristic industrial, other "post-industrial" musics and even artists influenced by 70s soundtrack work. Now when I think about it... Mortiis spent a lot more time with synthesizer music than he did in Black Metal, so if he is considered a father of this style could it actually be that he was drawing the same or similar influences that artists who would never otherwise even be considered for the list. OK... I recognise I could be dragging this off topic, but I'm personally putting things together.. I was a fan of Black Metal, Industrial, noise etc. in the 90 and on, and am now just seeing things that to me were anomalies (thinking Moriis here again) having a name associated to it. Where does something like the Moon Lay Hidden Beneath a Cloud fit in..? on paper it checks all the right boxes, but I wouldn't say as a whole they fit the genre. Thanks for indulging my brain dump. :-P There's a lot of video game music as well which can sound nearly identical to the most important of this stuff. However I think what differentiates this line of genre is that DS has honed in on the sound, while for others it was just a brief passing-through. Though many others have arrived here, we have chosen to stay here. As for why did black metal spawn dungeon synth rather than another genre? Good question! I don't know... Can you post examples of some of these artists you think arrived at the same sound? And I don't really understand what you mean by "anomalies." When I discovered Summoning in the 90s, I felt that « Nightshade Forests » was just a continuation of « Dol Guldur », tracks that couldn't fit on the album because it was too long (78 mins, I think), but were not lesser in quality at all. It was as well known and has readily available as the other albums, so I think it's their equal. I'd even argue that it's more essential than « Stronghold ». When this one came out in 99 I recall that I was disappointed, because I thought the guitars were too loud, too aggressive, the keyboard melodies too much in the background, the keyboard sounds were too « heavy », something was lost of the old spirit of Summoning. (It's my least favorite album of theirs.) Nightshade Forests is definitely not "lesser," but as you said it's "a continuation of Dol Guldur." It would need to stand on its own to match the others on this list. I totally disagree about Stronghold by the way. When I first discovered Summoning I might've agreed with this, and I certainly understand this opinion, however over the years it seems to be the one hardest to wear out on repeated listens. Somehow it remains one of the most interesting. The Stargate is great too. Maybe a bit on the bombastic side, but for me it's one of the best albums for preparing D&D sessions, proper world-building. But I get what you mean by it losing the distance. (It's cool to hear you're an old fan of the blog. But I'll just say I'm glad other resources and writers have since appeared, I did not at all have the energy to keep up with the new developments.)
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Post by lilac on May 8, 2017 8:58:14 GMT -5
There's a lot of video game music as well which can sound nearly identical to the most important of this stuff. However I think what differentiates this line of genre is that DS has honed in on the sound, while for others it was just a brief passing-through. Though many others have arrived here, we have chosen to stay here. As for why did black metal spawn dungeon synth rather than another genre? Good question! I don't know... Can you post examples of some of these artists you think arrived at the same sound? And I don't really understand what you mean by "anomalies." What I meant by "anomalies" is for example early Burzum tracks and then his prison albums, or Mortiis' releases... at the time, I think most people would consider them Black Metal artists, but the albums weren't black metal at all.. my thought is that before looking back at albums like these to note an emerging sound, they would be anomalies in the black metal world. I would expect similar things have happened with many genres. I don't know that I have good examples of artists arriving at the same sound... and I don't actually think I can point to anything that is as fully formed into a cohesive package as what is considered Dungeon Synth.. In another thread someone mentioned The Moon Lay Hidden Beneath a Cloud having some tracks that were very similar, I would say the same for some Death In June (though not as a whole). Maybe some Blood Axis songs... Basically where I think my mind was going is that I would think someone like Mortiis was inspired by industrial music, or soundtrack music to produce his Dungeon works.. I love the Black Metal aesthetic and think it's great that DS came up alongside the BM scene as it does make it distinct from the artists I've referenced above..
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Post by thekeeper on May 8, 2017 9:40:56 GMT -5
lilac, I've always felt the tie between DS and industrial as well. Industrial music kind of lacks the romanticism that ties BM to DS, though; neofolk is a bit more romantic, but it's much less naive, there's a higher level of self-awareness, I think. If much of BM has a rejection component, that translates to DS terms with it's high focus on escapism. DS coming from BM seemed very natural, especially making the most sense coming from lone musicians/side projects and considering BM is much more fantastical. Industrial and neofolk could've done it eventually, but I think DS would look very different now (but I would love a DS project that was just like the second track of Amara Tanta Tyri for a whole album). DS was blended for a long time within BM confines, but now it's more divorcable scene-wise as it's own whole genre. I think if DS had come from industrial and neofolk with less BM centrism, it'd be less of it's own genre and more of just a certain sound within neofolk and industrial music. A large part of that might be due to neofolk and industrial being a bit looser in their definitions than black metal.
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Post by andrewwerdna on May 8, 2017 19:46:56 GMT -5
If I'm understanding you correctly, you're saying there might've been an essential earlier influence and that DS did not appear within BM fully formed? This is something I've been wondering about for a long time. I certainly think there were outside influences even when DS would appear as BM intros and stuff, and we know that Mortiis was into industrial (though I don't know if he was early-on), so it's possible industrial was an influence. I think soundtracks must've been an influence. However the influence most DS artists seemed to cite back then was Tangerine Dream and company, which is also the influence I hear on that Blood Axis track. I think DS more or less did make the immediate leap from that influence into what it is now as soon as BM musicians took to the keyboards. Eugene posted a few very interesting tracks several months ago, which show that DS was around, almost fully-formed, before both Burzum and Mortiis. which bands in this style started using keyboards first? Eugene, do you know? I'm not sure chronologically who was the first to use this? It's hard to say who was the first but Mortuary Drape had a long organ-ish intro on their 1987 demo "Necromancy" Another interesting example is an intro by Swedish death metal band Sorcery. It's from their 1989 demo "Unholy Crusade" and it sounds really close to DS that we all know and love. For quite a while I thought video game music might be the forgotten critical influence, but judging from interviews it appears Mortiis was not much of a gamer. However we know Varg liked his PC RPGs back in the day, and Burzum influenced Mortiis, so perhaps in a convoluted way the influence of music from games like Ultima were the magic ingredient? I don't think there's any direct evidence for that though. I wish an interviewer would ask Varg if computer game music was an influence on his ambient tracks.
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Post by andrewwerdna on May 8, 2017 20:58:41 GMT -5
Also, a commenter on the blog post reminded me of Grabesmond. Can't believe I forgot about "In schwindendem Licht..." So I added that. And I'm changing my mind about Nightshade Forests. Even though it's just an ep and doesn't do much more than Dol Guldur, I still think it was widely heard and important. The list doesn't seem quite complete without it.
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Post by garvalf on May 9, 2017 3:16:56 GMT -5
so perhaps in a convoluted way the influence of music from games like Ultima were the magic ingredient? I love so much the musics from all the Ultima serie! They are all so epic, from Ultima III to Ultima VI. They have truely a DS feeling (maybe because it's using a sound chip and the games are sometime happening in a dungeon!). Check this song, from Ultima III: www.youtube.com/watch?v=eBXo-u1suL0&list=PLF6E84CF465C859F6 (this one is probably for PC, the c64 version sounds more crude) I can't resist to share the music from Wizardry, by Mike Alsop, with you: www.youtube.com/watch?v=jGYyXfj9WxgIt's quite joyful, but it sounds so old and distant that it could fit in some DS world. I make some C64 music myself, with this kind of spirit in mind, you can for exemple listen to this if you wish: picosong.com/MPDN/Oh, and while we're talking about Burzum, there is a cool cover of Burzum's "Tomhet" for the C64: www.youtube.com/watch?v=h_ry4ki62UU
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Post by andrewwerdna on May 9, 2017 7:12:03 GMT -5
I love the music of the Ultima games but I've never actually played a single one of them. Some day...
By the way, I really like this "Même les plus jolis lys finissent par faner" song.
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Post by Darnziak on May 9, 2017 21:40:52 GMT -5
Also, a commenter on the blog post reminded me of Grabesmond. Can't believe I forgot about "In schwindendem Licht..." So I added that. And I'm changing my mind about Nightshade Forests. Even though it's just an ep and doesn't do much more than Dol Guldur, I still think it was widely heard and important. The list doesn't seem quite complete without it. I'm glad you changed your mind! I had never listened to this Grabesmond demo, it's quite good! But in the same vein, maybe we should include the first Die Verbannten's Kinder Evas albums? I know they are more neoclassical but they are still quite close to the early DS sound. Back the day, for me it was just « Summoning without the black metal ». Also, something interesting : when I discovered Mortiis I didn't pay attention to Vond because the concept was so different (the album cover for Selvmord is not my thing) but I just found out that there is another version of that album called Slipp Sorgen Løs, with a totally different cover : trees and a lake. And listening to this album with that cover in mind, suddently it feels totally 100% Dungeon Synth. A wonder what a simple image can do. www.discogs.com/Vond-Slipp-Sorgen-L%C3%B8s/release/2292028That might also be why I associate Die Verbannten's Kinder Evas with dungeon synth so much : there are castles on the covers! lastfm-img2.akamaized.net/i/u/300x300/93314f8cb216484793f1d323a6c3f015.jpg
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Post by andrewwerdna on May 10, 2017 8:14:21 GMT -5
I didn't know about that other release of Selvmord, very interesting.
I don't think DVKE is even dungeon synth (most of the time), though that is something a lot of people disagree with me about. I think the point is as you say, "more neoclassical," it's more neoclassical than it is dungeon synth. I remember after I discovered Mortiis I was so hungry for more, but apart from a few lucky discoveries, I found it incredibly difficult to find more "dark dungeon music." One of my first stops, after Summoning was DVKE, along with Dargaard and Arcana (who fall in the same spectrum imo). These artists just did not quite have the sound though, not for me anyways. They're great of course, better than a lot of DS, but great in a very different way. I think this effect falls entirely on the singing, because as you said it often sounds right along the line of DS (especially earlier on). That's not to say singing is inherently not DS, as Fjelltronen and Stargate had quite a bit, but there's something about the prominence and style of the DVKE singing which I think immediately thrusts it into neoclassical territory.
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