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Post by dedran on May 20, 2017 18:41:37 GMT -5
There should be a thread to keep track of these sub genres where we can debate about what falls into what The only sub-genres of DS whose named are actually used are Winter Synth, Forest Ambient, and Dungeon Noise. Forest Ambient is the looser of the three and can be applied somewhat broadly for things that fall into naturalist or even druidic territory, but I'd say stuff like Cernunnos Woods, Siliniez, and Taru nu Fuin fall into the FA concept if those give you a sense of what it is. You could say there a lot of other sub-genres (barbarian, progressive, etc) but (typically) no one really uses the actual names of these in a serious or defining way for their own or other's music, and they probably have the smallest quantities of artists attributed to them compared to WS, FA, and DN. I would also add Ancient Boreal Forest, Vindkaldr, Til Det Bergens Skyggene, Uruk Hai, and Ildjarn to the forest synth list, plus maybe Burzum's newer stuff (at least Sol Austan, Mani Vestan). Anyway, I feel like Vinterriket is essential winter synth: |
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Post by nahadoth on May 20, 2017 23:40:46 GMT -5
I don't think it's just about the thematic stuff, there's a fundamental difference in sound. A DS album can be based on a winter theme and still be pure DS and not WS at all. For instance, Jääportit - Kauan koskematon I consider to be pure DS, and perhaps it overlaps WS a bit, but I don't consider it a WS album. Now Jääportit - Uumenissa on the other hand is about as pure WS to my ears as anything. I think maybe the difference might be that WS is more a subgenre of ambient while DS is more a subgenre of black metal. A problem it does have though is where do you draw the line between it and general ambient? Is Biosphere WS? I think of there being a clear sonic difference between winter synth and general ambient - and it's that coldness of the synth timbres or production or something that I can't quite pinpoint - whereas I sometimes see a pretty broad overlap between DS and WS. Sometimes it feels like DS can get by on pure intention/imagery and can therefore blur the sonic boundaries - but I feel like winter synth has a compulsory sonic quality that no amount of snowscape imagery and song titles can fake. I'm interested to what people would think of the first two Nahadoth albums - Faces of Winter and Solstice. The first was made with as much Paysage D'Hiver-type ambient in mind as pure DS, although I think that only really comes across in two or three tracks. The second was definitely made with the intention of making a dark DS album, but seems like it could fit the definition in the OP. It doesn't seem as though the project is continuing purely in that direction at this point, as much as I appreciate winter as a backdrop for storytelling and mysticism. |
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Post by crystallogic13 on May 21, 2017 2:51:28 GMT -5
Just my 2 cents, but (if I got it right), I'm with Andrew here on his point of the whole "Synth" naming in stuff that essentially probably belongs in the ambient domain. Not wanna discredit excellent music however its tagged, it's just that some people (like me  ) appreciate proper tagging.. This problem is of course even more general , as I'm sure you will also have come across releases on bandcamp with "Dungeon Synth" as a tag that are clearly ambient.. It was the same reason I was unpleasantly surprised when in the first forum compilation a dungeon NOISE song was included. I wouldn't mind if the compilation was labelled "Experimental DS" or Dungeon Noise etc etc, but was since I was expecting traditional if I could say DS. It would be like if someone was listening to a Thrash Metal collection and suddenly track no 5 was Death metal or Doom or post metal or whatever. What I'm trying to say is that while in today's world so many genres collide and overlap(and available listening time is less), an as much accurate as possible description of the music artist(s) provide is more than welcomed and maybe even expected.. p.s. Not trying to bring up that argument about noise, just made an analogy, I appreciate all honest artists doing their thing in any art form really.  |
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Post by andrewwerdna on May 21, 2017 5:47:45 GMT -5
I think of there being a clear sonic difference between winter synth and general ambient - and it's that coldness of the synth timbres or production or something that I can't quite pinpoint - whereas I sometimes see a pretty broad overlap between DS and WS. Sometimes it feels like DS can get by on pure intention/imagery and can therefore blur the sonic boundaries - but I feel like winter synth has a compulsory sonic quality that no amount of snowscape imagery and song titles can fake. On second thought I agree with this actually. There is a difference, but it's just a little vague to me because I don't listen to enough WS or general ambient. I was just going to say someone should really dive into making an exhaustive list, but I just checked Balbulus' list and it seems much larger and more thorough than I remember it being, great work. I'm interested to what people would think of the first two Nahadoth albums - Faces of Winter and Solstice. The first was made with as much Paysage D'Hiver-type ambient in mind as pure DS, although I think that only really comes across in two or three tracks. The second was definitely made with the intention of making a dark DS album, but seems like it could fit the definition in the OP. It doesn't seem as though the project is continuing purely in that direction at this point, as much as I appreciate winter as a backdrop for storytelling and mysticism. I was actually thinking of mentioning Solstice in my previous post as an example of WS without winter as an obvious theme. These two albums seem like excellent representations of WS to my ears. Balbulus have you considered adding these to your list? Just my 2 cents, but (if I got it right), I'm with Andrew here on his point of the whole "Synth" naming in stuff that essentially probably belongs in the ambient domain. Not wanna discredit excellent music however its tagged, it's just that some people (like me ) appreciate proper tagging.. Well I certainly don't want to cast any doubt on the WS term. There are definitely good elements about it. The specificity of "winter" I think is a good thing, because as Balbulus mentioned dungeon synth is not just about dungeons (and in fact rarely is). I feel like "winter" just refers more to the general mood: cold, sparse, and static. And "synth," while perhaps not necessarily an important distinguisher, is not inaccurate; it obviously would not work without synthesizers. And it also suggests a close tie to dungeon synth, which is accurate as well. The "forest ambient" term is good as well, but I'm just wondering if maybe these serve the same function? Keeper, how do you see FA and WS differing? |
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Post by dedran on May 21, 2017 7:53:24 GMT -5
I think it might not be so important whether "winter synth" is more a subgenre of dungeon synth or ambient. Maybe it's more of a hybrid between black metal/dungeon synth chord progressions, melodies, etc. and dark ambient textures and aesthetics. It's certainly not as abstract or non-melodic as ambient music normally is, but it's also not as "active" as dungeon synth. I think Vinterriket captures this very well.
Anyway, I thought I'd list some albums that don't come from the black metal/dungeon synth world at all that are excellent at evoking winter landscapes. These would traditionally just fall under the incredibly generic term "ambient," but I think they're definitely worth a listen if you want to expand your interest in wintery music to include albums that aren't made solely by black metal musicians.
Biosphere - Substrata
Janne Hanhisuanto - Icescapes
Harold Budd, Robin Guthrie & Eraldo Bernocchi - Winter Garden
Loscil - Coast / Range / Arc
BONUS: Did Burzum create winter synth with this track?
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Post by crystallogic13 on May 21, 2017 8:20:16 GMT -5
Hmmm I will be honest.. Biosphere's Substrata strangely for me did not evoke any winter feelings, quite contrary warmth I dare say.. Could be all subjective in the end I guess.. As for Rundgang if I would be forced to put it somewhere, winter is not what it evokes, what a classic by the way as well as the 25 minute on Filosofem(the latter btw has a nuclear post apocalypse feeling to me).. I generally put that into ... rhythmic ambient (? as opposed to normal ambient?).. ? Dunno something like that.. I guess the boundaries of what is what and especially how someone perceives and what feelings it evokes are very lose. Thanx for clearing that out Andrew, still my feelings on this echo what I wrote anyway.. And as already mentioned I am all for tagging music based mostly on music itself and not artwork,or subjective percepction etc.).. Either way good posts and nice finds, some stuff i never heard, keep em coming. |
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Post by dedran on May 21, 2017 8:25:44 GMT -5
Hmmm I will be honest.. Biosphere's Substrata strangely for me did not evoke any winter feelings, quite contrary warmth I dare say.. The album seems to be a little all over the place, so I see what you mean. I don't think it's as cohesive as the other albums that I posted. The intro is very wintery to me, and so are tracks like Antennaria. Beyond that, there are some warmer moments, bits of processed guitar, and stuff that has a more dream-like quality (probably because of the Twin Peaks influence). |
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Post by andrewwerdna on May 21, 2017 9:03:22 GMT -5
My long time preferred winter synth project is (early) Vinterriket. A representative album is Landschaftsmalerische Klangwelten synthetischer Tonkunst. More recently, the synth albums of Moloch (Ukraine) and Voromrak are superb exponents of the genre. Perhaps I'm forgetting some important name. Regarding to a definition of winter synth, I think that sounds, as colours, has their own temperature. I feel that some long release pads, with a timbre close to the subtle whistle of winter landscapes, and their sound variations, can evoke coldness and an iced desolation. It's a kind of sound that you choose, a landscape that you want to paint. There were russian landscape painters specialized in winter landscapes. In the same way, I think winter synth is far to be too limited. Instead, I find it challenging and that led me to make my own winter synth project, time ago. Your winter synth album, Lethargie im Schnee, is excellent. I've listened to it a few times now and have been thoroughly impressed each time, exemplary for the genre. Balbulus, maybe another one to consider for your list? |
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Post by curwenius on May 21, 2017 9:47:46 GMT -5
Thanks for your words, Andrew. I'm planning to get ready a second album of Eislandschaft in the next months, hopefully.
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Post by emerge on May 31, 2017 12:02:33 GMT -5
Late to this thread, but to keep it going... My journey to DS started with the broader dark ambient genre, and WS artists like Paysage d'Hiver, Vinterriket, etc. played a large part. The WS blog was a great resource for me in discovering similar artists in this niche genre. As for the definition, WS often incorporates slower droning melodies, a somber reflective tone, ethereal expansive atmosphere, sometimes twinkling notes that evoke crystalline ice, and sometimes field recordings of icy winds. Peaceful, mellow, contemplative, isolation, serenity. Essential WS classics in my mind: Paysage d'Hiver - Die Festung (mentioned earlier) Vinterriket – ...Und Die Nacht Kam Schweren Schrittes, Landschaften Ewiger Einsamkeit, LichtschleierMoloch - Abstrakter WaldIldjarn - Nidhogg - Hardangervidda pts. I & II (a little more ambient than WS)Looking forward to a new Eislandschaft release, that's great news, Curwenius! |
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Post by Profoundemonium on Jun 30, 2017 19:17:37 GMT -5
Land of Ice could probably be added to the list. Released a few demos between 2006-2008.
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Post by thekeeper on Jun 30, 2017 19:53:47 GMT -5
Land of Ice could probably be added to the list. Released a few demos between 2006-2008. Interesting stuff. Very dramatic winter synth. Weird inclusion of the dance bass and reverse cymbals, snare sound isn't bad though. |
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Post by thekeeper on Jun 30, 2017 20:03:50 GMT -5
dedran , great stuff. I don't think I would say Burzum started winter synth with that Filosofem track; at least to me, that track always reminded me of space, not so much winter. I do think Varg had a big part in bringing electronic elements into the BM canon though, especially ambient stuff. Perhaps his electronic elements inspired Paysage? Listened to Die Festung again today and it's still in my eyes the crowning achievement of winter synth, just so good. I think Die Festung might have started WS proper, a black metal-derived focus on winter synth ambience. It also came out in 1998, so its definitely the precursor to WS today.
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Post by chaucerianmyth on Jul 1, 2017 1:09:49 GMT -5
This my be a little off topic, but is Forest Ambient just a nebulous form of Dungeon Synth with forest/woodland imagery? I would think it could have distinct musical characteristics all its own, but that never seems to be the case when it is discussed, from what I've seen.
Also, I've heard Satanic Abortion described as being Forest Ambient. Can anyone explain that to me?
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Post by thekeeper on Jul 1, 2017 1:26:32 GMT -5
This my be a little off topic, but is Forest Ambient just a nebulous form of Dungeon Synth with forest/woodland imagery? I would think it could have distinct musical characteristics all its own, but that never seems to be the case when it is discussed, from what I've seen. Also, I've heard Satanic Abortion described as being Forest Ambient. Can anyone explain that to me? Yeah it's rather fluid. I always attrubute it to deeply forest themed stuff that is more light or non-bombastic in sound, dreamier, trying to get close to its name. Mragor is a great example. I don't see how Satanic Abortion could be considered forest ambient in any capacity, haha. Where'd you read that? I call SA 'dungeon grind'. |
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) appreciate proper tagging.. 
