Tyrannus
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Post by Tyrannus on Jun 9, 2017 17:30:23 GMT -5
We all more or less know what defines Dungeon Synth (I say "more or less" because the term in itself in ambiguous in some ways) but the purpose of this thread is a bit deeper than that. What are qualities that a good, or even great, dungeon synth album has for you? This thread idea emerged in another thread, and it is my hope that some good discussion will emerge from this. I want to hear which specific qualities everyone likes best in DS. Where the discussion will take us, who knows!
For me, my favorite DS albums are all lo-fi and dark. I like when mistakes are kept in the recording and it has a somewhat comfy, amateurish feel. Part of what drew me to DS initially was the black metal-esque unpolished nature to it, so I have a soft spot for particularly roughly hewn synth music. I think the atmosphere is much more important than the technicality or anything like that so I'm not one to gravitate towards exceptionally elaborate compositions. In terms of the visual aesthetic I like it simple too. I like hand drawn or self-photographed album art, typically in the more monochromatic realm of things, potentially possessing a sort of black metal aesthetic reminiscent of its roots.
Here are some recent favorites:
Often fairly simplistic but very atmospheric and effective in conveying a hazy, archaic feeling. So that's what I like in the genre, what do you all like? What makes for a good, great, or classic album?
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Post by Pilgrim's Shadow on Jun 10, 2017 8:08:30 GMT -5
good sophisticated compositions are nice, as long as the Atmosphere is kept priority. I can listen to other music whenever i want for the composition, but DS is deeper then that for me. It is like a portal to the fantasy worlds we all live in our hearts.
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Post by nebulosa on Jun 10, 2017 15:08:47 GMT -5
I enjoy the lo-fi and dark stuff as well. I certainly have a soft spot for drone infused dungeon synth: Abandoned Places and Erdstall are fantastic in my book, just found Vaelastrasz and Snarling Clearing which I think are great as well. I listen to really well executed light-hearted dungeon synth as well, such as Fief.
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Alder
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Post by Alder on Jun 10, 2017 15:57:56 GMT -5
The "textures" are very important to me - Mausolei & Hedge Wizard come to mind right away as relatively simple music that captures the dungeon atmosphere well through good sound-choice. Something about that 16-bit/MIDI/mid-90s casio sound (I feel like there's some sort of descriptor I'm missing here) gives me the serious dungeon feels. And on that, I agree with Tyrannus that mood/atmosphere >> complicated composition.
That said, the combination of sonic texture & well-composedness makes really great DS - Erang & Chaucerian Myth are the first two that come to mind as hitting both.
As for the album art thing - I sort of automatically shuffle monochrome-DS & color-DS into two primary sub-genre categories in my mind, and despite mostly naming color-DS artists in this post, don't think I prefer one over the other.
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Post by Pilgrim's Shadow on Jun 10, 2017 15:59:12 GMT -5
I enjoy the lo-fi and dark stuff as well. I certainly have a soft spot for drone infused dungeon synth: Abandoned Places and Erdstall are fantastic in my book, just found Vaelastrasz and Snarling Clearing which I think are great as well. I listen to really well executed light-hearted dungeon synth as well, such as Fief. by "dark stuff" you mean stuff like "An Evil of Nordic Frost" by Endoki Forest, and Moevot's "Abgzvoryathre"? They seriously give me the creeps, i love them. not long ago i used to love DS with more electronics like Jim Kirkwood does, but lately i enjoy "Blood Tower" the best. It is just amazing how much feeling runs through his tracks
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Tyrannus
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Post by Tyrannus on Jun 10, 2017 16:09:12 GMT -5
I enjoy the lo-fi and dark stuff as well. I certainly have a soft spot for drone infused dungeon synth: Abandoned Places and Erdstall are fantastic in my book, just found Vaelastrasz and Snarling Clearing which I think are great as well. I listen to really well executed light-hearted dungeon synth as well, such as Fief. by "dark stuff" you mean stuff like "An Evil of Nordic Frost" by Endoki Forest, and Moevot's "Abgzvoryathre"? They seriously give me the creeps, i love them. not long ago i used to love DS with more electronics like Jim Kirkwood does, but lately i enjoy "Blood Tower" the best. It is just amazing how much feeling runs through his tracks I have been listening to a lot of Moëvöt and Aäkon Këëtrëh and general black ambient type stuff lately. Hard to say whether it really falls into the realm of DS but it's great
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nazgaldracul
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Post by nazgaldracul on Jun 11, 2017 8:04:50 GMT -5
Indeed an interesting question. I guess it all comes to down to what is good in general and if an objective conclusion can be made. If the assumption is that beauty is in the eye of the beholder then the qualities that makes something good is individual, and thusly nothing can ever really be good or bad, only observed and judged. This equalizes the value of art (in this case dungeon synth) and makes all contributions to the art (still DS in this case) equally deserving of observance and judgement. In this view no real consensus can ever be made on what qualities that makes something good, though it opens up for an internal discussion about what is good in your view. If you treat art like politics and assume that the majority is the only ones qualified to determine value then the question should be formed as a questionnaire, though sales in general would also be a good indicator of quality.
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Tyrannus
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Post by Tyrannus on Jun 11, 2017 9:33:26 GMT -5
Indeed an interesting question. I guess it all comes to down to what is good in general and if an objective conclusion can be made. If the assumption is that beauty is in the eye of the beholder then the qualities that makes something good is individual, and thusly nothing can ever really be good or bad, only observed and judged. This equalizes the value of art (in this case dungeon synth) and makes all contributions to the art (still DS in this case) equally deserving of observance and judgement. In this view no real consensus can ever be made on what qualities that makes something good, though it opens up for an internal discussion about what is good in your view. If you treat art like politics and assume that the majority is the only ones qualified to determine value then the question should be formed as a questionnaire, though sales in general would also be a good indicator of quality. These are all very interesting points! On one hand I like the notion of equalizing the value of various dungeon synth acts, but on the other hand I know there are artists I prefer over others so I'm not sure all dungeon synth really is equal, for me at least. I guess I'm of the opinion that "good dungeon synth" is fairly subjective, so perhaps a better way to interpret this thread's concept is to treat it as "what are the qualities in the genre that you enjoy most?" or perhaps "what makes a good dungeon synth release in your opinion?" But that's just one direction to take the discussion. Here are some other quantifiable metrics by which we could attempt to judge the "objective worth" of an album: -number of supporters -amount of money made -number of hours spent by the artist -number/size of the labels that pick you up -the size of the tape run -number of virtual instruments used -number of layers generally used in your DAW -RYM scores and ratings -year of release (the older the better!) Those are but some examples, but I think we can all agree (or maybe not, that would certainly be interesting) that these aren't really adequate metrics by which to evaluate art or artistic merit. But how does one judge artistic merit?
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Post by nebulosa on Jun 11, 2017 11:12:29 GMT -5
I enjoy the lo-fi and dark stuff as well. I certainly have a soft spot for drone infused dungeon synth: Abandoned Places and Erdstall are fantastic in my book, just found Vaelastrasz and Snarling Clearing which I think are great as well. I listen to really well executed light-hearted dungeon synth as well, such as Fief. by "dark stuff" you mean stuff like "An Evil of Nordic Frost" by Endoki Forest, and Moevot's "Abgzvoryathre"? They seriously give me the creeps, i love them. not long ago i used to love DS with more electronics like Jim Kirkwood does, but lately i enjoy "Blood Tower" the best. It is just amazing how much feeling runs through his tracks Yeah, that sort of weird and unsettling stuff; I'm actually listening to "An Evil of Nordic Frost," now. Also, Blood Tower is great! Indeed an interesting question. I guess it all comes to down to what is good in general and if an objective conclusion can be made. If the assumption is that beauty is in the eye of the beholder then the qualities that makes something good is individual, and thusly nothing can ever really be good or bad, only observed and judged. This equalizes the value of art (in this case dungeon synth) and makes all contributions to the art (still DS in this case) equally deserving of observance and judgement. In this view no real consensus can ever be made on what qualities that makes something good, though it opens up for an internal discussion about what is good in your view. If you treat art like politics and assume that the majority is the only ones qualified to determine value then the question should be formed as a questionnaire, though sales in general would also be a good indicator of quality. These are all very interesting points! On one hand I like the notion of equalizing the value of various dungeon synth acts, but on the other hand I know there are artists I prefer over others so I'm not sure all dungeon synth really is equal, for me at least. I guess I'm of the opinion that "good dungeon synth" is fairly subjective, so perhaps a better way to interpret this thread's concept is to treat it as "what are the qualities in the genre that you enjoy most?" or perhaps "what makes a good dungeon synth release in your opinion?" But that's just one direction to take the discussion. Here are some other quantifiable metrics by which we could attempt to judge the "objective worth" of an album: -number of supporters -amount of money made -number of hours spent by the artist -number/size of the labels that pick you up -the size of the tape run -number of virtual instruments used -number of layers generally used in your DAW -RYM scores and ratings -year of release (the older the better!) Those are but some examples, but I think we can all agree (or maybe not, that would certainly be interesting) that these aren't really adequate metrics by which to evaluate art or artistic merit. But how does one judge artistic merit? I generally agree with Mr. Dracul here that it is impossible to objectively label art as "good," or "bad." It really is up to the individual experiencing it to determine if it is up to their own personal liking. However, if this thread is to dive into the possibility of determining "artistic merit," I would welcome the discussion! I feel like many of the things that are listed as possible metrics of "objective worth," do not directly relate to the quality of the music made, but again, this is my personal insight. For example, a particular dungeon synth artist that doesn't have many fans might simply be obscure and unknown, but make great music. Perhaps one way to judge artistic merit is whether or not the artist achieves what they set out to do with their music. I think most artists have some kind of goal or vision in mind when they create art. If they are able to meet that goal or vision, I would say that would potentially determine their artistic merit. Though even if the artist does not realize their vision in the art they create, others might see something in it and greatly enjoy it. This is certainly a tricky subject.
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Post by thekeeper on Jun 12, 2017 12:32:29 GMT -5
Since we're assuming the subjective stance of 'good DS' being what works best for our personal tastes and desires, this will be a bit easier than delving into a consideration of 'good DS' in a possible objective form, which I don't believe solidly exists based on empirical measurements of popularity. Maybe sales or number of downloads, maybe, but of course there are hidden gems even though sometimes these are few and far between the releases established as scene classics that the majority agree are pretty damn good. I don't think a objective definition of 'good DS' serves a purpose outside the act of its own consideration: we could make a 'good DS' checklist out of some empirical and observed metrics and consider what that means, but who really cares. Alone music, reclusion musick, etc.
For my own tastes, I enjoy kind of a wide range of DS flavors, but I tend to enjoy projects that evoke images or feelings that other projects don't evoke, so I'm not too interested in projects that sound like other projects, unless they happen to really hit on the conjuration of what the original project summoned, but that's less common. I like recognizing an artist when I hear them. You can really do that with Voldsom artists, Lord Lovidicus, Sagenhaft, Cernunnos Woods, Chaucerian Myth, lots of others. You know its them. I also really appreciate personal bedroom projects where it feels like the artists were working with what what they had, constraints on production. Ranseur came off to me like that initially. Very minimal, wistful yet harsh, very original. Everything was deliberate, but I like the audible constraint of limited equipment and I think that adds a more spirited element to DS and it becomes much more memorable for me because they're evoking this atmospheres from less. Atmosphere is important to me as well, whether or not its constructed deliberately. Ranseur's atmosphere is quite deliberate with the noise backdrop, works well. Abandoned Places has a very memorable and original atmosphere from the tones and composure. Some 90s tapes have an atmosphere that's accented by their conditions, the 4-track haziness and low priced synths, both a conditional one and a deliberate one (I'm unsure if I've heard any artists whose atmosphere is purely conditional). All of this kind of conglomerates into an authenticity, I suppose. I like artists writing music for themselves with what they have, as an absolute basis. I love hearing artists evolve and learn, too. If an artist isn't being true to themselves, it won't be that memorable for me and I probably won't enjoy it very much. I listen to a lot of DS, but I keep coming back to some of the highly original newer artists and the hazy, fuzzy, warped 90s tapes.
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Tyrannus
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Post by Tyrannus on Jun 12, 2017 13:33:20 GMT -5
Since we're assuming the subjective stance of 'good DS' being what works best for our personal tastes and desires, this will be a bit easier than delving into a consideration of 'good DS' in a possible objective form, which I don't believe solidly exists based on empirical measurements of popularity. Maybe sales or number of downloads, maybe, but of course there are hidden gems even though sometimes these are few and far between the releases established as scene classics that the majority agree are pretty damn good. I don't think a objective definition of 'good DS' serves a purpose outside the act of its own consideration: we could make a 'good DS' checklist out of some empirical and observed metrics and consider what that means, but who really cares. Alone music, reclusion musick, etc. For my own tastes, I enjoy kind of a wide range of DS flavors, but I tend to enjoy projects that evoke images or feelings that other projects don't evoke, so I'm not too interested in projects that sound like other projects, unless they happen to really hit on the conjuration of what the original project summoned, but that's less common. I like recognizing an artist when I hear them. You can really do that with Voldsom artists, Lord Lovidicus, Sagenhaft, Cernunnos Woods, Chaucerian Myth, lots of others. You know its them. I also really appreciate personal bedroom projects where it feels like the artists were working with what what they had, constraints on production. Ranseur came off to me like that initially. Very minimal, wistful yet harsh, very original. Everything was deliberate, but I like the audible constraint of limited equipment and I think that adds a more spirited element to DS and it becomes much more memorable for me because they're evoking this atmospheres from less. Atmosphere is important to me as well, whether or not its constructed deliberately. Ranseur's atmosphere is quite deliberate with the noise backdrop, works well. Abandoned Places has a very memorable and original atmosphere from the tones and composure. Some 90s tapes have an atmosphere that's accented by their conditions, the 4-track haziness and low priced synths, both a conditional one and a deliberate one (I'm unsure if I've heard any artists whose atmosphere is purely conditional). All of this kind of conglomerates into an authenticity, I suppose. I like artists writing music for themselves with what they have, as an absolute basis. I love hearing artists evolve and learn, too. If an artist isn't being true to themselves, it won't be that memorable for me and I probably won't enjoy it very much. I listen to a lot of DS, but I keep coming back to some of the highly original newer artists and the hazy, fuzzy, warped 90s tapes. Alright so it looks like we've collectively sort of ruled out the notion of objectivity here. I suggested those metrics to see if they're viewed as valuable but it appears they tend not to be valued, at least in the subset of the community I've heard from. Another important thing I want to touch on is this notion of uniqueness and originality. I certainly like original DS that I can tell apart from other things, and I really love a unique visual style and approach as well. But I just want to sort of play devil's advocate and question whether that's the best attribute in DS, just for the sake of discussion. It may seem, as with black metal, that there's like a "formula" of sorts and ingredients you should be putting in there. There are traditions and tropes people tend to look for. It seems like there are limitations with what synth and percussion sounds would feel appropriate to create a dungeon atmosphere. Is there a level of deviation from tradition that at some point becomes unacceptable? Where does one draw that line?
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Post by thekeeper on Jun 12, 2017 14:51:57 GMT -5
Alright so it looks like we've collectively sort of ruled out the notion of objectivity here. I suggested those metrics to see if they're viewed as valuable but it appears they tend not to be valued, at least in the subset of the community I've heard from. Another important thing I want to touch on is this notion of uniqueness and originality. I certainly like original DS that I can tell apart from other things, and I really love a unique visual style and approach as well. But I just want to sort of play devil's advocate and question whether that's the best attribute in DS, just for the sake of discussion. It may seem, as with black metal, that there's like a "formula" of sorts and ingredients you should be putting in there. There are traditions and tropes people tend to look for. It seems like there are limitations with what synth and percussion sounds would feel appropriate to create a dungeon atmosphere. Is there a level of deviation from tradition that at some point becomes unacceptable? Where does one draw that line? I think there can be a deviation enough where it breaks out of being 'dungeon synth', sure, but I think we're still broadening the spectrum of what DS is. The basis is defined and we've been stretching the limits of definition, honestly for years now. Perhaps some instrumental tropes in DS would be timpani, tambourine, pan flute, and the fart horns I've joked about (maybe orchestral pads as well), also high usage of the M1 VST. I don't think there's a singular "best attribute" for me because it's a combination of the attributes I listed: evocation of images and atmosphere, audible honesty, and uniqueness of vision. These combined make great DS for me, light stuff, dark stuff, whatever kind. I think the black metal formula functions just a bit differently. I kind of get some of the purity of visions aspects of BM if its purpose is in the realm of some kind of philosophical mystic negation, like HNW or something (less mystic), but I don't think that applies as much to DS even though the genres are closely related blood-wise. Depends what it's trying to do. If a BM project's point is to cycle the tradition, then they probably aren't going to throw in some surprising major chord sequences. Some people like that kind of thing, sticking to the formula. Others are really critical about that aspect of BM and think the second wave is extremely rife with recycled tropes and lack of originality. I like newer traditional bands and old, new avant garde stuff, all kinds. I think people can make great DS if they use the tropes and common elements, but, for me at least, if its not their own thing also, where they don't make their project their own project, then I don't really care about it that much and it won't be that memorable (there are probably exceptions of course, if someone just writes really well or something). The individual visions of DS projects are really key in the feeling of their music, for me. Now that DS has an established sound, it's easy to see the skeleton and reproduce it. Some people do it pretty well of course and are still memorable, but there's also a big chance of being boring and forgettable. I've said on another post, if DS projects are just trying to be in the same vein of Mortiis and use the same sounds he did, make the same kind of DS, why would I listen to their project and not just Mortiis? What is their project doing for them? It's like how people define punk, maybe. Everyone knows how to make a basic punk band, but how punk is it to do so, exactly? (or arguably maybe direct reproduction is the most punk thing, valid point) How DS is it to directly reproduce the imaginative world of someone else and explore their nostalgic visions? (I won't mention ~~post-ds~~) I equate DS with as being for the artist themselves, exploring their own imagination, past, concept interests, whatever, so I value uniqueness in that respect.
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Post by curwenius on Jun 13, 2017 18:07:19 GMT -5
It sounds obvious perhaps, but for me it's all about melodies, notes and instruments. Their combination is, as I see it, what leads to a DS atmosphere. However, here it appears an old topic. Every music genre or aesthetic trend has a starting point, something that eventually becomes a standard, a canon. And I think that puts the mark about what kind of atmosphere would be DS or not. Please remember, we are just making some brainstorming on DS, I know it's almost impossible to define in one sentence "DS atmosphere", but with our musical background, we can't avoid making relations between what we have previously listened and what we are listening now. I hope I'm making myself clear, my english is not exactly shakesperian, but what I wanted to say is "it's all about the context". In my opinion, the main context should always be given by the music itself. The track names, cover and sound fx (or lyrics, if applicable), of course, have to do their part coherently, but only after the music has set the context. At this point, the fact of being a perfect quality recording or an amateurish one's would take a secondary place in the piece as a whole, no matter how fantastic, personal or conceptual the vision of the musician is. Just for giving an example: despite of how noisy Einhorn or Ranseur can sound, I can't help thinking of them as strongly related to Dungeon Synth. Because of the melodies, the notes they used. That brings my background to the surface, and makes me think in DS. You may like them or not, of course, (I like them a lot, by the way), but they accomplished the main task: to set a dungeon synth context. Well, I don't usually participate in threads that require a high level of english writing, so I apologize in advance if I wrote something that could sound offensive, non-polite or even unintelligible. I dared to do it only because I find this topic really interesting.
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Post by crypticdungeon on Jun 13, 2017 18:20:40 GMT -5
There is not really a particular style of DS that I like or dislike by default, or music styles in general (some exceptions tho). I like music when the artist is skilled. Not exclusively technical skill, but the skill of making music and getting a point across. Invoking feelings or imagination into the listener. Be it gritty lo-fi dungeon synth, be it really majestic and expansive dungeon synth or be it folk music, or blues, or some form of progressive death metal. As long as there is that kind of connection between me and the artist (a musical connection kind of) I can enjoy any Dungeon Synth release I guess.
Not to totally exclude some kind of preference tho. I do not like any rap music or hiphop for example, and I seem to lean heavily towards the metal side of the musical spectrum. And of course my passion for DS is great. I love both high quality produced epic DS as well as lo-fi black metal like DS.
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Tyrannus
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Post by Tyrannus on Jun 13, 2017 18:26:27 GMT -5
It sounds obvious perhaps, but for me it's all about melodies, notes and instruments. Their combination is, as I see it, what leads to a DS atmosphere. However, here it appears an old topic. Every music genre or aesthetic trend has a starting point, something that eventually becomes a standard, a canon. And I think that puts the mark about what kind of atmosphere would be DS or not. Please remember, we are just making some brainstorming on DS, I know it's almost impossible to define in one sentence "DS atmosphere", but with our musical background, we can't avoid making relations between what we have previously listened and what we are listening now. I hope I'm making myself clear, my english is not exactly shakesperian, but what I wanted to say is "it's all about the context". In my opinion, the main context should always be given by the music itself. The track names, cover and sound fx (or lyrics, if applicable), of course, have to do their part coherently, but only after the music has set the context. At this point, the fact of being a perfect quality recording or an amateurish one's would take a secondary place in the piece as a whole, no matter how fantastic, personal or conceptual the vision of the musician is. Just for giving an example: despite of how noisy Einhorn or Ranseur can sound, I can't help thinking of them as strongly related to Dungeon Synth. Because of the melodies, the notes they used. That brings my background to the surface, and makes me think in DS. You may like them or not, of course, (I like them a lot, by the way), but they accomplished the main task: to set a dungeon synth context. Well, I don't usually participate in threads that require a high level of english writing, so I apologize in advance if I wrote something that could sound offensive, non-polite or even unintelligible. I dared to do it only because I find this topic really interesting. Well I appreciate your input for sure! I agree that the music is the most important aspect of the project, and that visual elements are important (and may be what first attracts a listener), but to be dungeon synth and good dungeon synth the sonic ingredients definitely need to be there. There are definitely elements of electronic music that send of very different vibes than the fantasy/dungeon feeling present in DS, so a good DS record definitely needs to effectively conjure that archaic atmosphere in some way, and everything else is secondary. I think using a lot of synthesized medieval instrumentation can certainly help create that feeling, but I'm also really interested in the more nebulous, spectral, detached synth tones that appear a lot in DS, that sound unlike any traditional instrument. It's hard for me to put my finger on the specific sonic qualities that evoke the dungeon atmosphere, at times. I do a lot of trial and error to see which tones sound good and which don't seem to conjure the feeling effectively. Perhaps someone more eloquent than myself might be able to delve into articulating that: what specifically is it in the music that is creating such a powerful atmosphere? I've always felt the production impacts that a lot, but when it comes down to it there are concrete qualities of the music itself that seem to evoke this ancient feeling. Of course different artists and albums have fairly different sounds, so the answer to the question probably does vary a bit from artist to artist, so it may be easiest to break down specific albums and look and what qualities are really creating the atmosphere, for you at least. I'm definitely interested in exploring this concept of the "dungeon atmosphere" and what all goes into creating that.
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