Tyrannus
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Post by Tyrannus on Jun 13, 2017 18:45:34 GMT -5
There is not really a particular style of DS that I like or dislike by default, or music styles in general (some exceptions tho). I like music when the artist is skilled. Not exclusively technical skill, but the skill of making music and getting a point across. Invoking feelings or imagination into the listener. Be it gritty lo-fi dungeon synth, be it really majestic and expansive dungeon synth or be it folk music, or blues, or some form of progressive death metal. As long as there is that kind of connection between me and the artist (a musical connection kind of) I can enjoy any Dungeon Synth release I guess. Not to totally exclude some kind of preference tho. I do not like any rap music or hiphop for example, and I seem to lean heavily towards the metal side of the musical spectrum. And of course my passion for DS is great. I love both high quality produced epic DS as well as lo-fi black metal like DS. Notions of artistic intent and sincerity seem to be a recurring theme in this thread so far. How do you guys judge whether an artist "got their point across" or was "achieving what they set out to do"? When do you know an artist, in any style of any medium, is being insincere or wasn't "doing their best" or anything like that? What if someone accidentally created something awesome? Is that possible, and if so is that good or bad? If I make a slight conversational detour, I feel what has attracted a lot of us to various types of extreme metal and DS is this perceived sincerity. I know for myself at least, black metal and dungeon synth seem like more "real" or "honest" forms of artistic expression versus like pop music (which I do like, just for other reasons) or other "more conventional" genres of music, that I know may not seem to resonate as much with some of us. Where does this perception come from? Why do we look for sincerity in music? How do we judge that? I think we can all agree that we listen to DS in order to feel something, for some sort of emotional resonance. If that's the case it makes a lot of sense that we'd want the artist whose music is impacting us to have been earnest and deliberate in their endeavors. In a way that seems to affirm and validate what we ourselves are feeling. It makes the emotional connection and experience feel real. Would you say this is true for you guys? If your favorite DS artist came out and said they made your favorite album of theirs as a joke, would you not feel betrayed? The music would be exactly the same, but somehow that newly revealed lack of integrity would surely seem to taint their project beyond the point of enjoyment. How can we protect ourselves from such heartbreak? How do you know when an artist is being sincere? EDIT: Here's just some facetious food for thought regarding sincerity: If the artist REALLY cared, wouldn't he/she try to have as good production value as possible? If the artist was REALLY sincere, why don't they have a good logo and album art? Are they even trying? How can you, as an artist, say you CARE when you're putting out three albums a year? Shouldn't a truly sincere piece of art take longer? Even one a year could be called too much!
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Post by crypticdungeon on Jun 14, 2017 6:50:49 GMT -5
There is not really a particular style of DS that I like or dislike by default, or music styles in general (some exceptions tho). I like music when the artist is skilled. Not exclusively technical skill, but the skill of making music and getting a point across. Invoking feelings or imagination into the listener. Be it gritty lo-fi dungeon synth, be it really majestic and expansive dungeon synth or be it folk music, or blues, or some form of progressive death metal. As long as there is that kind of connection between me and the artist (a musical connection kind of) I can enjoy any Dungeon Synth release I guess. Not to totally exclude some kind of preference tho. I do not like any rap music or hiphop for example, and I seem to lean heavily towards the metal side of the musical spectrum. And of course my passion for DS is great. I love both high quality produced epic DS as well as lo-fi black metal like DS. Notions of artistic intent and sincerity seem to be a recurring theme in this thread so far. How do you guys judge whether an artist "got their point across" or was "achieving what they set out to do"? When do you know an artist, in any style of any medium, is being insincere or wasn't "doing their best" or anything like that? What if someone accidentally created something awesome? Is that possible, and if so is that good or bad? If I make a slight conversational detour, I feel what has attracted a lot of us to various types of extreme metal and DS is this perceived sincerity. I know for myself at least, black metal and dungeon synth seem like more "real" or "honest" forms of artistic expression versus like pop music (which I do like, just for other reasons) or other "more conventional" genres of music, that I know may not seem to resonate as much with some of us. Where does this perception come from? Why do we look for sincerity in music? How do we judge that? I think we can all agree that we listen to DS in order to feel something, for some sort of emotional resonance. If that's the case it makes a lot of sense that we'd want the artist whose music is impacting us to have been earnest and deliberate in their endeavors. In a way that seems to affirm and validate what we ourselves are feeling. It makes the emotional connection and experience feel real. Would you say this is true for you guys? If your favorite DS artist came out and said they made your favorite album of theirs as a joke, would you not feel betrayed? The music would be exactly the same, but somehow that newly revealed lack of integrity would surely seem to taint their project beyond the point of enjoyment. How can we protect ourselves from such heartbreak? How do you know when an artist is being sincere? EDIT: Here's just some facetious food for thought regarding sincerity: If the artist REALLY cared, wouldn't he/she try to have as good production value as possible? If the artist was REALLY sincere, why don't they have a good logo and album art? Are they even trying? How can you, as an artist, say you CARE when you're putting out three albums a year? Shouldn't a truly sincere piece of art take longer? Even one a year could be called too much! I don't think that you consciously ''judge'' an album or artist on sincerety. You either feel them or not, and this could grow over time, as some releases take more time to fully understand than others (hence the popularity of, well, pop music. Which is really easy to grasp for most people.) I do think it is possible for someone to accidentally create something awesome. I believe it has happened numerous times actually. Just by accident coming across a really interesting new sound or instrument or effect or something else. I don't know of any examples from the top of my head, but I'm sure this has happened, as with any art and even science, where many things happen by accident. I think the reason we want sincerity in music is rather simple. It's because of the reasons we listen to music in the first place: feelings. If you're sad and lonely, you're looking for either music where the artist somehow in you perception gives off that vibe or thought or if you're sad and lonely you could be looking for music to cheer you up, so where the artist tries to bring joyful emotions onto the listener. Either way, you're looking for some form of sincerety. because it helps us with what we need or want at that point. I do think that when someone makes an album as a joke, it's mostly fairly obvious. Or in the rare occassion that you can't simply tell, I think you as artist should have the listeners that actually enjoy it have their dignity and just don't tell it was a joke at first. If an artist were to reveal that an album that some listeners actually and unironically enjoy was a joke, then I think that artist is either oblivious to that they created something good or they're a dickhead. There's not a real way to ''protect'' yourself from this other than going by your common sense as to just listening to something and if it sounds sincere than it probably, somewere, is. And as for the last questions, I don't think sincerety (in music!) has much to do with production value, visuals and quantity of releases. If someone can make music but expresses his emotions through a distorted sound, then that's only a means for him to be even more sincere. And some people just don't have the means to pay for or make an appealing logo or album cover for themselves. I do think that artists should take their time creating music, but some people just have a higher pace of writing and creating music than others. One might take 5 years for an album that he deems worthy of releasing to the public, while the next one might only need 3 weeks or something. I myself can, with the right flow of inspiration, write multiple songs in one go, while others might need weeks for just one. I don't thibk that has any impact on the sincerety of music, as long as an artist is actually sincere.
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Post by andrewwerdna on Jun 15, 2017 19:38:47 GMT -5
To start off, I'm going to say I agree that there is obviously no objective standards by which to measure music quality, especially not in the case of dungeon synth. If you were to measure on profitability or popularity it would fail miserably, if you were to measure based on complexity and sophistication DS as a genre would fail miserably, if you were to measure based on time and effort spent on composing and production DS would fail miserably (a few artists spend a comparable amount of time on the creation as other genres, but when you consider that rehearsal and live performance are not a factor, much less time is spent with the material before it gets released). So what makes dungeon synth good would have to be something subjective; there is no objective standard even if you wanted to apply one as a mental exercise. By all possible objective standards DS is an inferior genre not worth listening to.
So why is it worth listening to? It's something subjective, and even though I've written pretty extensively about it, I still find it hard to articulate. I don't find it in all DS, or even most, but if I were to sum it up in a word it would be "magic." That's what makes DS great for me, it's why I love it. But I find most DS interesting and worth listening to, just because I'm fascinated by earnest obscure visions. So I'd say what makes it good is "sincerity."
So I guess what's harder to say is what makes DS bad, what does bad DS entail? I could point to Xynfonica, however this is a case where it's not exactly bad but just inaccessible. It's one of the most interesting DS projects as a matter of fact, even if it's not something I actually enjoy listening to, so in a way I'd actually consider it good. I think to some extent the "True DS" folks are right that it comes down to effort; there is a threshold of effort, though I think it's quite low compared to other genres because a primitive and obscure sounds fits the subjective values of this music. It's not just about how much time spent on the album, I fully believe one can make an album in a day that is worth listening to, what matters though is how inspired the artist is. The artist can uncover these things back accident, however if they don't have an ear for this sort of sincere magical sound I don't think that will embody the full work that is presented. And someone can spend hundreds and hundreds of hours on an album, but if they're just detachedly punching notes into the piano roll with no real vision then I would still consider that to be "low-effort." Certainly I think a few of the epic bombastic battle albums these past few years are starting to get formulaic, and even though they might brag about having hundreds of layers per track, I find they can have far less of that feeling of magic than simple 4-layer improvisational noodling albums. So while too little effort can make a DS album bad, I think on the other hand too much effort can have the same effect, because to sustain that effort it is possible for one to lose their feeling of inspiration and discovery and it will instead just feel like work, another humdrum chore to get done. But that said, most of the definitive examples of "bad" DS I think come down to laziness, the artist not spending enough time in working with the music so that it can effectively communicate their vision. That assumes the artist had a vision in the first place, which one should always do otherwise that is a show of serious bad faith.
And of course as I've mentioned many times elsewhere, I think the effect of "escape" is an essential and unique aspect of the genre. I think the feeling of being in another place, specifically one of magic, mystery, ancient times, etc. is what makes it "dungeon." So of course for it to be good it needs to successfully transport the listener (imo).
So, in short I'd say what makes dungeon synth good is the artist having an original (or at least uniquely powerful) transportative vision, and then effectively communicating that vision.
There's a lot of other great questions raised in this thread that I'd like to respond to when I'm able, but I have a lot I want to say so I'm going to try and pace myself haha.
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Post by Witherer on Jun 15, 2017 23:13:37 GMT -5
I agree with nearly all points made so far in this thread, so instead of detailing the concepts of general standards of quality I'll attempt to describe in my way what I specifically require to deem a specific piece of DS exceptional. The most important aspects for me are the atmosphere and context. I need to be transported into a world and enticed to stay. Texture, tone, mix, degree of sound quality, etc are all highly important. I don't demand much from melody, musicianship, or instrumentation other than that they serve this. And as for the context, the presentation through album art, medium, song titles, story, theme, and artist persona, this all backs up the my interpretation of the atmosphere by assisting it from dimensions outside the music itself. The atmosphere and context attributes aren't limited by style or sub-genre or even skill or general regard, there are some well regarded plucky journeys I want to stay with and others I don't care for, the same goes for epic horn and drum battles as well as raw organs echoing through tortured cells. The line that divides projects I don't return to and ones that linger with me is difficult to pinpoint, but is built by all of these elements to define places that I want to inhabit.
The one minor point that has been mentioned so far that I partially disagree with is the idea of how long an artist works on a release or how many releases come out in a certain time frame. I've been proven wrong many times, but I'm always hesitant to check out a project where the artist describes themselves as new to the world of DS and have put out three releases in their first month. This signals to me that there is low effort or genuine appreciation for the genre and my interest in checking out the project plummets. Of course there are numerous exceptions to this and I have been surprised and loved projects from new comers with new perspectives, but that hurdle is still there for me every time I come across that combination of circumstances.
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Tyrannus
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Post by Tyrannus on Jun 16, 2017 0:08:36 GMT -5
andrewwerdna , I'm just checking this Xynfonica artist out and damn this is crazy. I love these exceptionally weird projects Edit: it seems like this album is widely disliked based on reviews and comments I'm seeing about it elsewhere online, but this is right up my alley. I guess this just goes to show (as if we needed yet another point to illustrate this) that the DS experience is a pretty personal/individual one that is pretty subjective ultimately.
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Tyrannus
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Post by Tyrannus on Jun 16, 2017 1:03:51 GMT -5
I agree with nearly all points made so far in this thread, so instead of detailing the concepts of general standards of quality I'll attempt to describe in my way what I specifically require to deem a specific piece of DS exceptional. The most important aspects for me are the atmosphere and context. I need to be transported into a world and enticed to stay. Texture, tone, mix, degree of sound quality, etc are all highly important. I don't demand much from melody, musicianship, or instrumentation other than that they serve this. And as for the context, the presentation through album art, medium, song titles, story, theme, and artist persona, this all backs up the my interpretation of the atmosphere by assisting it from dimensions outside the music itself. The atmosphere and context attributes aren't limited by style or sub-genre or even skill or general regard, there are some well regarded plucky journeys I want to stay with and others I don't care for, the same goes for epic horn and drum battles as well as raw organs echoing through tortured cells. The line that divides projects I don't return to and ones that linger with me is difficult to pinpoint, but is built by all of these elements to define places that I want to inhabit. The one minor point that has been mentioned so far that I partially disagree with is the idea of how long an artist works on a release or how many releases come out in a certain time frame. I've been proven wrong many times, but I'm always hesitant to check out a project where the artist describes themselves as new to the world of DS and have put out three releases in their first month. This signals to me that there is low effort or genuine appreciation for the genre and my interest in checking out the project plummets. Of course there are numerous exceptions to this and I have been surprised and loved projects from new comers with new perspectives, but that hurdle is still there for me every time I come across that combination of circumstances. Yeah as someone guilty of a super prolific first month in making DS, I can definitely understand how that may look from the outside. For me at least, and possibly for many others, it took a little to time to figure out what I was doing and really hone my sound. Everything I made early on (in my case the releases without the green art) I now more or less regard as a demo, that was key in helping me develop my sound. And now I've slowed down a tad in my production and falling into a comfortable rhythm. I know that rough initial month or so was still important and I'm sure others have had similar experiences. I'd find it really hard to put out multiple albums a month now but hey people do it, and while it may be hard to keep up with sometimes I at least can kinda get where they're coming from. I almost view it as like a type of perfectionism in which you publish each version of the draft, but then frantically go back to the drawing board out of dissatisfaction with what you've just made. Despite having some 26 items on my bandcamp (under various names and sounds, with many other items lurking elsewhere in the darkness), I feel like I've only made two actual albums at this point. Part of me wishes I had not published any of this stuff I made 2015-2016 since it really "clutters up" my discography in a sense and makes me appear sort of flippant or careless, but on the other hand I think everything I've made is really indicative of my progress and experience in working with sound, so it's all important to me still, and I'm proud of it and want to share it with others. I tend not to like immense discographies and I have admittedly thought less of artists in the past who make tons and tons of stuff rapidly, but as someone who could fit in that category themselves I understand that it can happen and that it can be part of the creative process and that it's not necessarily a bad thing. The main downside is that it can be hard for other people to maintain interest, perhaps, but ultimately the creation of DS is a deeply personal one so that's really what matters, is that you're enjoying (or otherwise getting something fulfilling/cathartic out of) the process of making it.
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Post by chaucerianmyth on Jun 16, 2017 11:06:23 GMT -5
Shit, I actually really love Xynfonica lol. It's so bizarre and interesting that I can't help but enjoy grappling with it. There honestly might not be another album like a Feast for Famished Ravens.
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Tyrannus
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Post by Tyrannus on Jun 16, 2017 11:29:05 GMT -5
Shit, I actually really love Xynfonica lol. It's so bizarre and interesting that I can't help but enjoy grappling with it. There honestly might not be another album like a Feast for Famished Ravens.Β Yeah the closest I've heard is stuff like Cythraul just in that it has those black metal vocals, but nothing really approaches this odd instrumentation from my experience
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Post by andrewwerdna on Jun 16, 2017 15:23:25 GMT -5
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Post by andrewwerdna on Jun 16, 2017 16:18:43 GMT -5
So if the Hekaloth stuff is "so bad it's good," what is just bad DS? I think that can say a lot about what is good.
I've never been a fan of Uruk-Hai because to me it sounded very lazy and, as mentioned earlier in this thread, a large quantity of releases in a short amount of time is something I find bothersome (though there have been artists in recent years that are proving that wrong). But maybe Uruk-Hai has improved? I haven't bothered trying any of the new stuff because I've always just been quite disappointed by that project.
I can think of others, but still nothing that seems definitively bad in my book. I'm quite curious what you guys consider to be "bad" DS albums.
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Tyrannus
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Post by Tyrannus on Jun 16, 2017 16:39:21 GMT -5
So if the Hekaloth stuff is "so bad it's good," what is just bad DS? I think that can say a lot about what is good. I've never been a fan of Uruk-Hai because to me it sounded very lazy and, as mentioned earlier in this thread, a large quantity of releases in a short amount of time is something I find bothersome (though there have been artists in recent years that are proving that wrong). But maybe Uruk-Hai has improved? I haven't bothered trying any of the new stuff because I've always just been quite disappointed by that project. I can think of others, but still nothing that seems definitively bad in my book. I'm quite curious what you guys consider to be "bad" DS albums. I like Uruk-Hai, although his stuff is definitely sort of sparse, perhaps more ambient. I never thought it was bad or anything though. I guess I've never felt comfortable describing anyone else's stuff as "bad" although some of it I find boring a bit. I'm not sure I've listened to an album or anything that I considered to be like a mockery of the genre or anything like that. But with music in general I tend to group things more by "things I like" and "things I don't like" versus "good" and "bad". Would "bad" mean maybe like the least sincere or least original? I mean some could call a lot of my stuff boring and a lot of the earlier stuff unoriginal but it was all sincere, for sure. Perhaps if I myself was more proficient then I'd be in a position to look down on others more, I do not know
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Post by thekeeper on Jun 16, 2017 18:17:32 GMT -5
andrewwerdna , I could never really get into Uruk-Hai either. Elbenwald was okay, a lot of his stuff seems pretty similar and relatively boring to me, though. There are probably some gems among the mass of releases, I'm just not that interested in looking. I'll have to think some more about what DS I've heard that I've considered bad. There's definitely stuff I don't really like but could see some merit in or understand where the artist was coming from. If I have to use the 'bad' descriptor in terms of DS, I'd probably use it to describe something that's created as a sellable product with the intention of being liked for specific reasons that the creator has observed among the DS scene or by keeping an eye on what's popular. Kind of what you were saying once about DS trajectory, Andrew, kind of like artists being able to take the basis that is mostly agreed upon to be liked, and just doing that to sell their music and feed their ego. I suppose that can also come down to intention. Some people probably hear really popular stuff and say, "I like this, I want to make this", and try to make the same thing too closely, but this would be from like an interested and fun perspective instead of, "I want to be liked and I want status in the DS scene", which seems pretty lame. Looking through best sellers on BC now for stuff I'm not into. Couldn't get into Uruk-Hai (stated above); Balrog is too soundtracky for me; Barak Tor's older stuff was okay but I didn't like the new album which I found too soundtracky and less majestic; didn't like the new RaevJager album nearly as much as some previous stuff; I thought the new Ekthelion tape was just a direct Lamentation copy without the stuff that makes Lamentation interesting; new Elixir stuff is all blending together for me; couldn't get into Terrenon for some reason. I don't think any of these artists are bad, though. I guess I'm just not into soundtracky DS. [Awaiting my doom]
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Tyrannus
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Post by Tyrannus on Jun 16, 2017 18:56:06 GMT -5
I totally agree that the soundtracky stuff tends to all blend together for me. I appreciate it but it's not for me
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Post by crypticdungeon on Jun 17, 2017 5:30:35 GMT -5
I actually am a sucker for those really epic movie-feeling releases haha. Although there are a lot of those out there and that makes for a really big pool of ''not that interesting'' releases. I don't think I really heard a DS album that I thought really sucked or something, just stuff that's not my cup of tea (like metioned before on here).
I agree with the statement that you could call a DS album bad if the artist only made it to hop on the dungeonwagon and just copy other artists to gain status, or even worse: to try and make money. Which they probably will fail miserably at but there must be some people out there who tried it. Just don't go that way haha.
You could consider some of the ''lazy'' artists bad I guess. When they just pump out the same album with all the same ideas every two weeks or something like that, but that kind of adds to the status and money thing.
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Tyrannus
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Post by Tyrannus on Jun 17, 2017 6:24:10 GMT -5
Is there really a lot of status and money to be had in DS? This concept has popped up before in other threads I think but is dungeon synth really a genre that people see as a way to fame and fortune? Does dungeon synth inherently weed out "the false" (i.e. those who aren't really sincere) or do trendhoppers find a way in? Aren't trendhoppers too busy making chill, lo-fi hip hop to put on YouTube or SoundCloud with an anime thumbnail? I guess this thread would be as good a place as any to really settle the matter as to if DS is in fact "trendy" right now and to what extent. This can help us figure out what is "bad" potentially, which can help us with what's "good". I'd also like someone to like point to a project they think is actually doing this kind of cash grab since really I just feel like it's not that common. I also need to revisit that other thread
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