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Post by ranseur on Jun 20, 2017 0:29:09 GMT -5
I think if we're talking about the true ds people the thing that strikes me is that a lot of those ideas were more popular a couple of years ago. I think the move away from that is what frustrated them. Especially maybe when einhorn and the moon worshipper stuff got some press. Even though I agree that there is a line in the sand in terms of experimentation, I think abandoned places was already pushing it at the beginning of the revival. For my own part I always felt conscious of this but wanted to push it as much as I felt comfortable with and still feel confident that it was dungeon synth. But the distinction from dark ambient is very important to me.
I've been critical of this true view point for several years now though, since grimrick started pushing it. Not because I don't think more polished or orchestral albums are relevant, but because of their refusal to accept that other takes on the genre are important or that other forms of innovation should be taken seriously.
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Tyrannus
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Post by Tyrannus on Jun 20, 2017 8:42:20 GMT -5
I think if we're talking about the true ds people the thing that strikes me is that a lot of those ideas were more popular a couple of years ago. I think the move away from that is what frustrated them. Especially maybe when einhorn and the moon worshipper stuff got some press. Even though I agree that there is a line in the sand in terms of experimentation, I think abandoned places was already pushing it at the beginning of the revival. For my own part I always felt conscious of this but wanted to push it as much as I felt comfortable with and still feel confident that it was dungeon synth. But the distinction from dark ambient is very important to me. I've been critical of this true view point for several years now though, since grimrick started pushing it. Not because I don't think more polished or orchestral albums are relevant, but because of their refusal to accept that other takes on the genre are important or that other forms of innovation should be taken seriously. It strikes me as odd that Grimrik is so militant about all this considering his stuff, especially that last album, is pretty "out there" itself. Same with raev since, as was mentioned, he musically really doesn't fit the bill in many respects. I think that "experimentation" can't really be called the problem when you look at who's doing the grumbling. Depressingly the complaints seem to have very little to do with the music and it's so much more focused on presentation and like how you act.
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Post by nahadoth on Jun 20, 2017 8:48:03 GMT -5
Freely give criticism: why does nobody fucking do this? I mean I've had people be like "ew, noise" with my stuff but no one really gets into a real discussion with me. Substanceless complaints are almost as bad as substanceless praise. I want people to tell me, and each other, what they do and don't like and to be explicit and be fucking real about it. This forum, sorry, operates in a largely circle jerk manner that feels way more comfortable giving praise than being confrontational. I've gotten a little feedback (here and on fb) regarding my mixing and artwork but not really anything that substantial. I'm of course flattered by anyone taking the time to listen to and tell me what they think about my work, but like I said, be real about it. We're all adults (more or less?) so we can handle this, I'd say. I'm tired of all the pussyfooting and "I don't wanna name names shit" like okay there's something to be said for being diplomatic about this sort of thing, but I think it'll be a lot more constructive to just speak your damn mind. If someone doesn't like my shit I want them to tell me and I want them to explain why. If someone does like it I'd like the same thing. Not that I'm expecting essays here I just crave substance and feedback and discussion. I want to reiterate that I'm endlessly grateful for all feedback I've gotten so far, but I want something more challenging, that will help me grow more. Thanks for bringing this up. I've felt this way a bit as well. Maybe we're all just too subjective about art where we tend to avoid this kind of stuff. Maybe we've all just been a bit careful since the FB drama. We can all take criticism and appreciate it, negative or positive. That's the thing I find most annoying, which is when someone clearly doesn't like something but the only criticism they can give is that it's ruining dungeon synth. I would love negative feedback that actually explained why something worked or didn't - because I can of course choose to ignore it, but at least looking at specific qualities can lead to thoughtful discussion that doesn't have to start out hostile or uncivil. Tyrannus, ranseur - there is a whole essay worth of complex psychological analysis that could be done on Grimrik, and I say this with great respect for his music, but that dude is full of contradictions.
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Tyrannus
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Post by Tyrannus on Jun 20, 2017 9:20:09 GMT -5
Thanks for bringing this up. I've felt this way a bit as well. Maybe we're all just too subjective about art where we tend to avoid this kind of stuff. Maybe we've all just been a bit careful since the FB drama. We can all take criticism and appreciate it, negative or positive. That's the thing I find most annoying, which is when someone clearly doesn't like something but the only criticism they can give is that it's ruining dungeon synth. I would love negative feedback that actually explained why something worked or didn't - because I can of course choose to ignore it, but at least looking at specific qualities can lead to thoughtful discussion that doesn't have to start out hostile or uncivil. Tyrannus , ranseur - there is a whole essay worth of complex psychological analysis that could be done on Grimrik, and I say this with great respect for his music, but that dude is full of contradictions. Haha yeah I've complained about him in the past but really that's largely unrelated to his music so much as his online persona if you will. A fascinating case of a burning desire to be dogmatic without having any actual ideology that you adhere to or believe in. But I don't find him particularly detrimental or problematic, just kind of confusing and thus easy to dismiss. As you say he makes quite respectable music so I guess kudos for that. Back to the topic of constructive criticism and all that, I feel like we can use the chambers here to do that. I, for one, welcome and invite feedback of all varieties so for anyone who was perhaps hesitant to offer that kind of thing unsolicited, you can go ahead and do that. I think we'd all benefit from some thorough dissection here and there. We should of course keep things civil though, yes.
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Post by ranseur on Jun 20, 2017 9:55:33 GMT -5
I think if we're talking about the true ds people the thing that strikes me is that a lot of those ideas were more popular a couple of years ago. I think the move away from that is what frustrated them. Especially maybe when einhorn and the moon worshipper stuff got some press. Even though I agree that there is a line in the sand in terms of experimentation, I think abandoned places was already pushing it at the beginning of the revival. For my own part I always felt conscious of this but wanted to push it as much as I felt comfortable with and still feel confident that it was dungeon synth. But the distinction from dark ambient is very important to me. I've been critical of this true view point for several years now though, since grimrick started pushing it. Not because I don't think more polished or orchestral albums are relevant, but because of their refusal to accept that other takes on the genre are important or that other forms of innovation should be taken seriously. It strikes me as odd that Grimrik is so militant about all this considering his stuff, especially that last album, is pretty "out there" itself. Same with raev since, as was mentioned, he musically really doesn't fit the bill in many respects. I think that "experimentation" can't really be called the problem when you look at who's doing the grumbling. Depressingly the complaints seem to have very little to do with the music and it's so much more focused on presentation and like how you act. I've thought the same thing about his last album. It's pretty good. And I guess it reflects the influence of the berlin school stuff, and some of that stuff was weird as hell. I'm not really trying to talk shit on him, he's allowed to have his opinion and he's never been disrespectful about it to my knowledge. I've just always rejected the whole sort of stand point of it, often silently though. I'm disappointed but not surprised that it turned into kind of a feud, but I'm not saying it's because of him that it got nasty.
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Post by thekeeper on Jun 20, 2017 10:05:31 GMT -5
I don't really think Grimrik criticizes people for experimentation per se, at least from what I've seen in the FB group. He's more concerned with people actually putting in decent effort and not jumping into DS with quick sloppy demos, more concerned with people seeing DS as a serious and legitimate genre. I understand that to an extent. If you read outside opinion on DS, it's a lot of "it's metal nerds with cheap synths, this is goofy", which isn't wrong, but I don't mind if they think that and dismiss it for seeming silly, that's all probably something he's trying to avoid. But, like I've said, I don't see the quick sloppy stuff as being a problem or even all that plentiful.
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Tyrannus
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Post by Tyrannus on Jun 20, 2017 10:19:02 GMT -5
I don't really think Grimrik criticizes people for experimentation per se, at least from what I've seen in the FB group. He's more concerned with people actually putting in decent effort and not jumping into DS with quick sloppy demos, more concerned with people seeing DS as a serious and legitimate genre. I understand that to an extent. If you read outside opinion on DS, it's a lot of "it's metal nerds with cheap synths, this is goofy", which isn't wrong, but I don't mind if they think that and dismiss it for seeming silly, that's all probably something he's trying to avoid. But, like I've said, I don't see the quick sloppy stuff as being a problem or even all that plentiful. Why would anyone care what the outside perspective is? It seems more important to just have an internal satisfaction, if you ask me. That's what bothers me is that i see the true Ds thing as an attempt to "legitimize" a genre which apparently doesn't have respect from the outside (as if the outside perspective somehow mattered). It seems insecure to me, and it seems like you must have pretty little faith in dungeon synth as a scene if you feel the need to "make dungeon synth great again"
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Post by thekeeper on Jun 20, 2017 10:35:35 GMT -5
I don't really think Grimrik criticizes people for experimentation per se, at least from what I've seen in the FB group. He's more concerned with people actually putting in decent effort and not jumping into DS with quick sloppy demos, more concerned with people seeing DS as a serious and legitimate genre. I understand that to an extent. If you read outside opinion on DS, it's a lot of "it's metal nerds with cheap synths, this is goofy", which isn't wrong, but I don't mind if they think that and dismiss it for seeming silly, that's all probably something he's trying to avoid. But, like I've said, I don't see the quick sloppy stuff as being a problem or even all that plentiful. Why would anyone care what the outside perspective is? It seems more important to just have an internal satisfaction, if you ask me. That's what bothers me is that i see the true Ds thing as an attempt to "legitimize" a genre which apparently doesn't have respect from the outside (as if the outside perspective somehow mattered). It seems insecure to me, and it seems like you must have pretty little faith in dungeon synth as a scene if you feel the need to "make dungeon synth great again" Yeah it seems like a very difficult thing to achieve. The QC aspect some people hold to importance makes sense if this is some ultimate goal, having DS gain some kind of respect, but I really don't think it works like that. There was one description note on the newest Ekthelion release I thought was kind of funny, "ATTENTION!!! : There was some input noise in the organ used for this that was impossible to remove. It's not for cult reasons." Like who cares what people think about something that unnoticeable lol, and it's a worry about how people could possibly perceive the artist as being like "untrue" or something if they possibly added some slight noise or lo-fi element. Not trying to put words in anyone's mouth either. Wish more people from traditionalist perspectives would join the forums... It's definitely a niche genre with a lot of weirdos, but I like it this way. Good DS is always a bit weird.
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Post by Tyrannus on Jun 20, 2017 10:45:33 GMT -5
Why would anyone care what the outside perspective is? It seems more important to just have an internal satisfaction, if you ask me. That's what bothers me is that i see the true Ds thing as an attempt to "legitimize" a genre which apparently doesn't have respect from the outside (as if the outside perspective somehow mattered). It seems insecure to me, and it seems like you must have pretty little faith in dungeon synth as a scene if you feel the need to "make dungeon synth great again" Yeah it seems like a very difficult thing to achieve. The QC aspect some people hold to importance makes sense if this is some ultimate goal, having DS gain some kind of respect, but I really don't think it works like that. There was one description note on the newest Ekthelion release I thought was kind of funny, "ATTENTION!!! : There was some input noise in the organ used for this that was impossible to remove. It's not for cult reasons." Like who cares what people think about something that unnoticeable lol, and it's a worry about how people could possibly perceive the artist as being like "untrue" or something if they possibly added some slight noise or lo-fi element. Not trying to put words in anyone's mouth either. Wish more people from traditionalist perspectives would join the forums... It's definitely a niche genre with a lot of weirdos, but I like it this way. Good DS is always a bit weird. I keep seeing "noise" thrown around as being specifically disliked. Is that accurate? Is noise the problem? Has this always been the case? ranseur you might have a good perspective on this also. I was under the impression that the true ds camp had beef with a bunch of stuff, but if it's noise specifically I'd be pretty interested in exploring that notion. I don't like to overestimate the impact that I or others have on the genre or scene, but I'm curious as to what extent these noise experiments are affecting things on a large scale. Like surely noise isn't the ONLY type of experimentation they dislike, right?
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Post by nahadoth on Jun 20, 2017 11:00:11 GMT -5
Yeah it seems like a very difficult thing to achieve. The QC aspect some people hold to importance makes sense if this is some ultimate goal, having DS gain some kind of respect, but I really don't think it works like that. There was one description note on the newest Ekthelion release I thought was kind of funny, "ATTENTION!!! : There was some input noise in the organ used for this that was impossible to remove. It's not for cult reasons." Like who cares what people think about something that unnoticeable lol, and it's a worry about how people could possibly perceive the artist as being like "untrue" or something if they possibly added some slight noise or lo-fi element. Not trying to put words in anyone's mouth either. Wish more people from traditionalist perspectives would join the forums... It's definitely a niche genre with a lot of weirdos, but I like it this way. Good DS is always a bit weird. I keep seeing "noise" thrown around as being specifically disliked. Is that accurate? Is noise the problem? Has this always been the case? ranseur you might have a good perspective on this also. I was under the impression that the true ds camp had beef with a bunch of stuff, but if it's noise specifically I'd be pretty interested in exploring that notion. I don't like to overestimate the impact that I or others have on the genre or scene, but I'm curious as to what extent these noise experiments are affecting things on a large scale. Like surely noise isn't the ONLY type of experimentation they dislike, right? Pretty sure it's any DS that doesn't fit this vaguely defined notion of what True DS is (ahem Harry Potter)
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Post by ranseur on Jun 20, 2017 11:15:12 GMT -5
Yeah it seems like a very difficult thing to achieve. The QC aspect some people hold to importance makes sense if this is some ultimate goal, having DS gain some kind of respect, but I really don't think it works like that. There was one description note on the newest Ekthelion release I thought was kind of funny, "ATTENTION!!! : There was some input noise in the organ used for this that was impossible to remove. It's not for cult reasons." Like who cares what people think about something that unnoticeable lol, and it's a worry about how people could possibly perceive the artist as being like "untrue" or something if they possibly added some slight noise or lo-fi element. Not trying to put words in anyone's mouth either. Wish more people from traditionalist perspectives would join the forums... It's definitely a niche genre with a lot of weirdos, but I like it this way. Good DS is always a bit weird. I keep seeing "noise" thrown around as being specifically disliked. Is that accurate? Is noise the problem? Has this always been the case? ranseur you might have a good perspective on this also. I was under the impression that the true ds camp had beef with a bunch of stuff, but if it's noise specifically I'd be pretty interested in exploring that notion. I don't like to overestimate the impact that I or others have on the genre or scene, but I'm curious as to what extent these noise experiments are affecting things on a large scale. Like surely noise isn't the ONLY type of experimentation they dislike, right? No, I don't think noise is the problem really. When this perspective came up I was the only one really doing that and I kind of downplayed it anyway, mostly because I didn't want to promote it to the noise scene at all. Not sure what those guys thought of my shit because it never really got posted once levi kind of stepped down from running the facebook page. That was before the group. I think it has more to do with the idea of ds progressing into something more streamlined, polished, and often soundtrack sounding. I just never thought it should go in one direction. But maybe einhorn was too much for some people, I've been into noise since I was a kid so it didn't startle me at all. But the harsh noise scene has these same problems, don't get me started on that. But once moon worshipper started I was like yeah, things are finally getting more diverse. What had me a little salty though was the tendency to lump anything lo fi with anything that was rushed and bad or anything weird. That way anything not especially polished could go in the bad pile. Except hedge wizard, everybody loves hedge wizard.
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Post by Tyrannus on Jun 20, 2017 11:25:22 GMT -5
nahadoth ah yes, can't forget that. But when their standards are so vague it's really hard to take seriously imo. ranseur I definitely agree that noise is automatically seen as low effort since people perceive it as like trying to obscure your lack of talent or something like that. It's definitely a flawed and inaccurate perspective on their end. It's their loss, I guess. I don't need anyone's approval
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olofdigre
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Post by olofdigre on Jun 20, 2017 13:42:43 GMT -5
Well there is alot of no effort noise and power electronics and HNW but if you know good noise when you hear it you can just as easy tell what is not so good(And you can tell by looking at the cover art most of the times). I do think that if you do not know what good noise entail then it is hard to understand what good dungeon noise entail and I do understand why most find it hard to understand how dungeon noise can be good. I myself like what you guys have put out but soon we will be drowning in bad dungeon noise like bandcamp has been drowning in bad HNW.
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Post by Tyrannus on Jun 20, 2017 15:18:47 GMT -5
Well there is alot of no effort noise and power electronics and HNW but if you know good noise when you hear it you can just as easy tell what is not so good(And you can tell by looking at the cover art most of the times). I do think that if you do not know what good noise entail then it is hard to understand what good dungeon noise entail and I do understand why most find it hard to understand how dungeon noise can be good. I myself like what you guys have put out but soon we will be drowning in bad dungeon noise like bandcamp has been drowning in bad HNW. That perspective makes sense. I guess some folks might not really have a good idea of what makes for good noise. I am interested to see if that prediction comes true, and dungeon noise will become a hot new trend for lazy folks. That would be unfortunate but we'll see!
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olofdigre
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Post by olofdigre on Jun 20, 2017 15:32:39 GMT -5
Well there is alot of no effort noise and power electronics and HNW but if you know good noise when you hear it you can just as easy tell what is not so good(And you can tell by looking at the cover art most of the times). I do think that if you do not know what good noise entail then it is hard to understand what good dungeon noise entail and I do understand why most find it hard to understand how dungeon noise can be good. I myself like what you guys have put out but soon we will be drowning in bad dungeon noise like bandcamp has been drowning in bad HNW. That perspective makes sense. I guess some folks might not really have a good idea of what makes for good noise. I am interested to see if that prediction comes true, and dungeon noise will become a hot new trend for lazy folks. That would be unfortunate but we'll see! Well let us hope that I am wrong about this. Also... even if we are flooded by no effort dungeon noise we will still be able to find great stuff. So let us not worry about that.
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