Tyrannus
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Post by Tyrannus on Jun 27, 2017 11:02:23 GMT -5
thekeeper I kind of disagree. I think that negation is extremely present in DS. In fact I think that's exactly what true DS is to some extent. It's formulaic and proud of that fact, because it's upholding the traditional sound. It doesn't need to accomplish anything else. I also feel that artistic negation is important for my personal work. I view my projects as exaggerations of certain DS tropes. I make my synth work extremely sparse and simple to highlight the outsider aesthetic. I of course turn the lo-fi trope up to 11 and add excessive roughness and grit through harsh noise. I don't view it as "pushing new ground" so much as emphasizing and dramatizing my favorite qualities in the genre of dungeon synth. Even my album art and naming conventions come from this mindset. My approach is in fact so extreme it could easily be confused for a parody or mockery of dungeon synth, but it is not. My art (or non-art if you prefer) comes from a place of love, for the genre and community. It's my goal to explore the genre's boundaries, and to distill its purest essence through an intense amplification of its basic components. So you may ask, if both I and the true ds camp are both employing artistic negation in this manner, then why do our products sound so different? The difference is that I do so in a self-aware manner. I negate deliberately whereas many don't realize they're doing this, much like the black metal bands who'd be offended to have what they do described as negation. All these bombastic barbarian soundtrack groups see this as upholding a tradition. This isn't to say all DS is like this. There are actually three camps in a sense. Two camps of different modes of artistic negation, and one which actually encourages progress and experimentation. This would be artists like chaucerianmyth and nahadoth (and many others, a lot of whom are on this forum) who blend in other musical influences and styles to actually carry the genre forward. I'd also put grimrik in here because despite being a "true" dude he isn't into following a pattern but is instead focused on being professional and legitimate, which is a different kind of trueness. One final point of clarification is that I don't think all makers of dungeon noise share my vision. I don't want to make anyone think that ranseur or Alder are about the same thing I am. I don't speak for them and don't want to put words on their mouths. One can certainly use noise elements to create a bold new sound that is intended to propel the genre forward in exciting ways. All I can say is what my work does, which is to make synth music which evokes the dungeon feeling with as much intensity as possible. If I'm being experimental, it's only that I'm using techniques from outside of the conventional DS canon.
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Post by thekeeper on Jun 27, 2017 12:32:05 GMT -5
thekeeper I kind of disagree. I think that negation is extremely present in DS. In fact I think that's exactly what true DS is to some extent. It's formulaic and proud of that fact, because it's upholding the traditional sound. It doesn't need to accomplish anything else. I also feel that artistic negation is important for my personal work. I view my projects as exaggerations of certain DS tropes. I make my synth work extremely sparse and simple to highlight the outsider aesthetic. I of course turn the lo-fi trope up to 11 and add excessive roughness and grit through harsh noise. I don't view it as "pushing new ground" so much as emphasizing and dramatizing my favorite qualities in the genre of dungeon synth. Even my album art and naming conventions come from this mindset. My approach is in fact so extreme it could easily be confused for a parody or mockery of dungeon synth, but it is not. My art (or non-art if you prefer) comes from a place of love, for the genre and community. It's my goal to explore the genre's boundaries, and to distill its purest essence through an intense amplification of its basic components. So you may ask, if both I and the true ds camp are both employing artistic negation in this manner, then why do our products sound so different? The difference is that I do so in a self-aware manner. I negate deliberately whereas many don't realize they're doing this, much like the black metal bands who'd be offended to have what they do described as negation. All these bombastic barbarian soundtrack groups see this as upholding a tradition. This isn't to say all DS is like this. There are actually three camps in a sense. Two camps of different modes of artistic negation, and one which actually encourages progress and experimentation. This would be artists like chaucerianmyth and nahadoth (and many others, a lot of whom are on this forum) who blend in other musical influences and styles to actually carry the genre forward. I'd also put grimrik in here because despite being a "true" dude he isn't into following a pattern but is instead focused on being professional and legitimate, which is a different kind of trueness. One final point of clarification is that I don't think all makers of dungeon noise share my vision. I don't want to make anyone think that ranseur or Alder are about the same thing I am. I don't speak for them and don't want to put words on their mouths. One can certainly use noise elements to create a bold new sound that is intended to propel the genre forward in exciting ways. All I can say is what my work does, which is to make synth music which evokes the dungeon feeling with as much intensity as possible. If I'm being experimental, it's only that I'm using techniques from outside of the conventional DS canon. I suppose you're right about negation in DS, don't know how I forgot about a large part of the 'alternate escape' element, but I think the negation functions a bit differently, at least compared to the traditional Darkthrone style negation. As far as sound, I'll use Transylvanian Hunger as an example because it's like the black metal song. Constant blast beat, no variation in strumming, straight 16ths, low production value. The negation is inherent in each facet of the song but also as a whole. DS negation is typically present moreso in audible concept and naivety, not always present in the ways its present in BM. Like I think Til Det Bergens Skyggene's self-titled employs negation through its melancholic otherworldliness while still maintaining variation in melody and composition, in contrast to the 'droning monochrome onslaught' style negation of Transylvanian Hunger and much other BM. I think DS negation comes moreso from its evoked imagery and atmosphere. As far the traditional DS founders, Burzum and Mortiis, both artists still have some of the negation components of BM (repetition, lower production value, etc), they just atmospherically differ in feel from BM. I think both types of negation can cross, since DS does obviously stem from BM, but at least to me the kind of negation DS has in its alternative dream/fantasy worlds differs in feel and concept than traditional Darkthrone-style negation which is almost more punk than naive.
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Alder
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Post by Alder on Jun 27, 2017 12:54:34 GMT -5
To me, the heart of the genre is about evoking a place/time/setting. This is my key focus in both listening and making DS - is the dungeon evoked? In this view, the canon Mortiis et al. represent classic dungeon settings and newer DS that adheres strictly to older "traditions" of the genres is about re-vising these old places. Newer boundary-pushing DS is about exploring new dungeons. I think that folks like chaucerianmyth and all that cozy/comfy tavern synth are actually pushing the envelope farther than anyone in the dungeon-noise corner as they're doing more to bring in new environments, locations, and characters from the same Dungeon Overworld. I think maybe I'm sideways agreeing with what Tyrannus wrote above. (P.S. - Maybe this is because I don't come from the metal world, but I don't fully understand what "negation" means in the context you're all using it.)
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Tyrannus
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Post by Tyrannus on Jun 27, 2017 13:47:56 GMT -5
thekeeper yeah definitely negation is done differently in the two scenes. The styles seek to accomplish different things so that makes sense and I agree! Alder it seems like we're on the same page, and that what we do is just sort of a newer approach to creating this same dungeon atmosphere. We're treading old ground in new ways. The real innovators are taking the atmosphere to new realms that we have not explored previously. Also negation here is a deliberate denial of progress, sort of an intentional retreading of old ground where the merit is not in innovation but in proficiency and the exercise of creation. So in black metal the ideal is a mastery of the aforementioned formula as opposed to being progressive. It's a view I have about black metal really which is why I love burzum as well as modern lo-fi bm like black cilice and carved cross, whereas stuff like oranssi pazuzu is totally lost on me because it's so boldly defiant of the customs of black metal. Thus I enjoy the artistic negation that is the denial of aural and ideological variation. HNW, which I also love, negates the importance of sonic variation, thus the purest HNW technically would be the HNW that does the least, in a way
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Post by thekeeper on Jun 27, 2017 14:24:50 GMT -5
thekeeper yeah definitely negation is done differently in the two scenes. The styles seek to accomplish different things so that makes sense and I agree! Alder it seems like we're on the same page, and that what we do is just sort of a newer approach to creating this same dungeon atmosphere. We're treading old ground in new ways. The real innovators are taking the atmosphere to new realms that we have not explored previously. Also negation here is a deliberate denial of progress, sort of an intentional retreading of old ground where the merit is not in innovation but in proficiency and the exercise of creation. So in black metal the ideal is a mastery of the aforementioned formula as opposed to being progressive. It's a view I have about black metal really which is why I love burzum as well as modern lo-fi bm like black cilice and carved cross, whereas stuff like oranssi pazuzu is totally lost on me because it's so boldly defiant of the customs of black metal. Thus I enjoy the artistic negation that is the denial of aural and ideological variation. HNW, which I also love, negates the importance of sonic variation, thus the purest HNW technically would be the HNW that does the least, in a way I think of 'negation' here less in terms of anti-progressive than a rejection of something depending on the context of said negation. In traditional black metal, there's definitely a progress negation, especially in early stuff, a negation in terms of a metal-nihilism (consistent blasts, monotony, speed, purity of approach, the mystic void). Even though the stuff was new at the time, it was still a rejection of a lot of tropes. HNW's negation is in the rejection of total musical convention, diversity, etc. But I'd say the negation of DS is less in terms of anti-progress in the music itself but a negation of our semblances of reality with formulation of an alternate transportative place/feel/whatever, but DS's negation is more naive than BM, less against progress than it is unconcerned with what exists outside of its nostalgically constructed world.
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Post by ranseur on Jun 28, 2017 0:53:50 GMT -5
thekeeper I kind of disagree. I think that negation is extremely present in DS. In fact I think that's exactly what true DS is to some extent. It's formulaic and proud of that fact, because it's upholding the traditional sound. It doesn't need to accomplish anything else. I also feel that artistic negation is important for my personal work. I view my projects as exaggerations of certain DS tropes. I make my synth work extremely sparse and simple to highlight the outsider aesthetic. I of course turn the lo-fi trope up to 11 and add excessive roughness and grit through harsh noise. I don't view it as "pushing new ground" so much as emphasizing and dramatizing my favorite qualities in the genre of dungeon synth. Even my album art and naming conventions come from this mindset. My approach is in fact so extreme it could easily be confused for a parody or mockery of dungeon synth, but it is not. My art (or non-art if you prefer) comes from a place of love, for the genre and community. It's my goal to explore the genre's boundaries, and to distill its purest essence through an intense amplification of its basic components. So you may ask, if both I and the true ds camp are both employing artistic negation in this manner, then why do our products sound so different? The difference is that I do so in a self-aware manner. I negate deliberately whereas many don't realize they're doing this, much like the black metal bands who'd be offended to have what they do described as negation. All these bombastic barbarian soundtrack groups see this as upholding a tradition. This isn't to say all DS is like this. There are actually three camps in a sense. Two camps of different modes of artistic negation, and one which actually encourages progress and experimentation. This would be artists like chaucerianmyth and nahadoth (and many others, a lot of whom are on this forum) who blend in other musical influences and styles to actually carry the genre forward. I'd also put grimrik in here because despite being a "true" dude he isn't into following a pattern but is instead focused on being professional and legitimate, which is a different kind of trueness. One final point of clarification is that I don't think all makers of dungeon noise share my vision. I don't want to make anyone think that ranseur or Alder are about the same thing I am. I don't speak for them and don't want to put words on their mouths. One can certainly use noise elements to create a bold new sound that is intended to propel the genre forward in exciting ways. All I can say is what my work does, which is to make synth music which evokes the dungeon feeling with as much intensity as possible. If I'm being experimental, it's only that I'm using techniques from outside of the conventional DS canon. I'm feeling what you guys are saying but I still think I have a different take on it. What Tyrannus is saying about his work is pretty similar to how I was feeling about noisy ds around 2013 (obviously he did it in a more extreme way), but I still felt like adding noise was an innovation and that it is a new element that is distinct from just having a lo fi production. As a whole I was trying to do something that was a simple and grimy take on the old sound, but I wanted to do it another way. I feel like noise is an element that wasn't there in the 90s ds scene even if it was around since the late 70s in the industrial scene. After that personally I wanted to innovate in other ways by bringing in different rhythmic elements and a nod to 60s minimalism. I think you can split innovation up into different types, and that you can do that for any genre as well. I'm saying there can be innovation from a production stand point (more polished or modern sound, better mastering), use of different equipment (VSTs, different synths like fm or analogue, dare I say toys), in terms of music theory (more complex structures, time signatures, chromatic playing, poly rhythms, more complex harmony), or by bringing elements in from other genres (noise, Berlin school), or thematic (mythology, older literature, fantasy beyond tolkein). The list goes on, I'm just throwing out some examples. But I guess I'm also saying that you can innovate in one way and stay more old school in another. This is one of the reasons why the true ds thing is kind of puzzling to me, because a lot of those guys are innovating in this way or that way. I don't think it's a matter of wanting to stay true in the black metal sense that we're all used to, the darkthrone worship thing and all that. I think it is more a case of what some people think is the right way to innovate, that a notion of progress is the key. Personally, and this is just me, I don't think I would have gotten involved in this if there was no innovation, if this was more like the Swedish death metal worship thing that was going on a few years ago. That was kind of uninteresting to me. What was interesting to me about the new wave of dungeon synth is that because this style wasn't done to death in the 90s that there was still room for innovation and new sounds. I think that innovation is happening and that it is a good thing. But I don't think of it as progress, more a fleshing out of the style.
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Post by andrewwerdna on Jul 28, 2017 2:50:00 GMT -5
What do you guys think the role of beauty is in dungeon synth? I've been thinking about this a bit today and I'm leaning toward thinking of beauty as necessary for a sincere expression of escape. However I'm not sure I'd say all good dungeon synth is beautiful, but I think all good dungeon synth is at least an attempt at some sort of beauty, and so in some cases what might be beautiful is the perceived intent rather than the actual result. However I also don't think it is simply beauty for beauty's sake. But my point is that I'm not sure an album can be considered traditional ds if it doesn't make some sort of attempt at being beautiful, which I'd argue is different from most genres today where beauty is not primary or necessary (including black metal).
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Post by jondexter on Jul 28, 2017 8:22:27 GMT -5
What do you guys think the role of beauty is in dungeon synth? I've been thinking about this a bit today and I'm leaning toward thinking of beauty as necessary for a sincere expression of escape. However I'm not sure I'd say all good dungeon synth is beautiful, but I think all good dungeon synth is at least an attempt at some sort of beauty, and so in some cases what might be beautiful is the perceived intent rather than the actual result. However I also don't think it is simply beauty for beauty's sake. But my point is that I'm not sure an album can be considered traditional ds if it doesn't make some sort of attempt at being beautiful, which I'd argue is different from most genres today where beauty is not primary or necessary (including black metal). Beauty is more of a word for describing good looking women to me, my point being that one could come up with any adjective etc. Do I think beauty has a role in dungeon synth? You need to 'see' beauty or you could in fact be hearing something ugly?
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Post by thekeeper on Jul 28, 2017 9:41:59 GMT -5
What do you guys think the role of beauty is in dungeon synth? I've been thinking about this a bit today and I'm leaning toward thinking of beauty as necessary for a sincere expression of escape. However I'm not sure I'd say all good dungeon synth is beautiful, but I think all good dungeon synth is at least an attempt at some sort of beauty, and so in some cases what might be beautiful is the perceived intent rather than the actual result. However I also don't think it is simply beauty for beauty's sake. But my point is that I'm not sure an album can be considered traditional ds if it doesn't make some sort of attempt at being beautiful, which I'd argue is different from most genres today where beauty is not primary or necessary (including black metal). I think this really relies on one's definition of beauty. In DS, for me, that beauty cane be something more conventionally defined as beautiful or moving (Spectral Kingdom - II) or the beauty can lie in the earnest effort of escapist naivete, that bedroom honesty (Lord Lovidicus - The Forge's Fire), but beauty is such a fluid concept that I could probably consider a lot of things in DS beautiful if I wanted to. A lot would describe SK as beautiful but may not describe that LL EP as beautiful by a conventional definition since its more crude and there are less enthralling sweeping melodies, but you could say its beautiful in that you can hear and feel the honesty, maybe that's the 'perceived intent' that you stated. Both are 'effective' to me, both transportative in the way DS can be. So I wouldn't say that traditional DS requires an effort towards a particular idea of beauty, and I'm not even sure a lot of actual traditional stuff coming out of the 90s had that ideal in mind either. Take Olgerd's first tape for example, lots of battle drumming and disconcerting synth lines. Definitely one of the old DS classics but I wouldn't say its beautiful by most people's definition. Not sure about perceived intent with this one either as I feel the artist's intent was to create epic battle music (I guess that intention can be beautiful? Idk). I think beauty might often be too nebulous and personal of a descriptor to be used as a DS inspiration catalyst or requirement, especially since we're interpreting artist intent for some classifications of beauty. There can be beauty in ugliness, a kind of beauty in the horrid, beauty in ferocity, as much as there can be beauty in the gentle and heavenly, bright and affirming, but listeners and artists are going to decide for themselves so it's hard to say. There are probably some more conventionally 'beautiful' releases that aren't effective in DS transportative terms to me. What are some albums that everyone else thinks would be 'conventionally beautiful' that weren't as effective to them or that you didn't like as much in the way you may enjoy other DS albums? Albums that are more crude that could be 'beautiful' in their escapist intent but still didn't catch you?
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Post by nahadoth on Jul 28, 2017 10:35:03 GMT -5
Yeah I think in terms of trad first wave DS, I feel like Depressive Silence is the chief example I would consider to be primarily beautiful. The melodic writing in a lot of early DS is, from a music theory perspective, not what I would consider traditionally beautiful - very effective and hypnotic, but I would not consider most Mortiis as being beautiful.
I think therefore it's really hard to view beauty without looking at atmosphere. Erdstall is an example I find really beautiful but also isolating, I think of say fief as being beautiful and a bit more comforting.
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Tyrannus
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Knowledge is Night
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Post by Tyrannus on Jul 28, 2017 11:09:47 GMT -5
Man I've been trying to gather my thoughts about this beauty stuff all day and I'm still not quite there. But one thought I was having is just that maybe the beauty quality is kind of part of what separates DS from black ambient to some extent. Also I've been thinking about dungeon noise in relation to all this. While a lot of DN can certainly be called pretty, does noise impact beauty at all? Could it enhance beauty in some ways?
EDIT: could beauty make a difference between being a positive and a negative escape experience?
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Post by jondexter on Jul 29, 2017 7:25:47 GMT -5
Dungeon Synth is more melodic and lord of the rings than Dark Ambient but both are beautiful if you are a girl. If you are a boy they are ugly.
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Post by Pilgrim's Shadow on Jul 29, 2017 12:24:17 GMT -5
What is beautiful? Can i call music full of dissonance and Atonal elements beautiful? If the answear is no, and only melodic sounds accepted as beautiful, then beauty matters nothing to me.
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Post by Witherer on Jul 3, 2020 9:21:50 GMT -5
This could be its own thread but I think much of the basis might be contained in here in previous discussions (which has been a great re-read with the perspective of three years passed). What is the ideology of DS now? What are the concepts and goals? Are they now different from past moments of the genre now that the genre is even more of established, with a second or third wave of post-revitalization artists? I was sparked by reading a Neofolk history and seeing a reference to an Industrial history which drew a line of comparison from a list of tenets which have a partial carryover still into DS. Points 1, 3, and 4 are mostly a match. I'd replace 2 and 5 roughly with themes of medieval/fantasy and nostalgia. Although I would be curious to see DS shift into "spread of information" and "confrontation of audience", ideas that I've been slowly working with myself as I pull at the edges.
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Post by chaucerianmyth on Jul 4, 2020 10:57:55 GMT -5
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