Alder
Magic User
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Posts: 228
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Post by Alder on Jul 20, 2017 15:24:20 GMT -5
For me, music and people are different things when it comes to the kind of music which is not social, the kind you listen alone (Dungeon Synth, for me). So in that case, i don't care what is the personality of the person who made the music, if i like it, i listen to it. I definitely agree that there are "social" and "non-social" genres/styles. Back when I did more free-noise-jazz-y stuff, it was all about the persona (or at least the character) behind the music, who they know, who they've played with and learned from, and who they've slept with (or didn't). Though jazz in all its forms suffers from a bit of hero worship IMO. Caroliner, etc. might be a good example of anonymous, but still important-to-the-music persona. Anyway, I'm not sure anymore that DS is really a non-social genre. Used to think so, for sure, as it was a genre I only listened to alone and never spoke of to anyone else.... however, (while I still have no real-life DS contacts), I've recently found the online DS social group to be super warm and communicative & I've started to see it as a more social genre, even if (for me) entirely online. Generally, negative behind-the-music doesn't change too much for me. Varg's political views cause less mental turbulence for me than a lot of the hip-hop I truly love which is filled with race/class/gender slurs I find despicable, and often the promotion of lifestyles I find abhorrent...I guess it's sort of the same way I can still enjoy television/movies filled with the shittiest people as protagonists (e.g. Breaking Bad), or made by directors who are shitty in real life (e.g. Mel Gibson). Specific to modern DS, sometimes hardcore purists and ultra-traditionalists make me a little wary, I still listen (and frequently enjoy) their musical output. More commonly, if I know someone from this blog, their own music or recommended stuff gets bumped to the top of my endless to-listen queue. Partly because of a support-your-peers mentality, partly because I love to follow projects as they evolve. So, even if I knew nothing of the person, but only their musical arc, that would promote goodwill for me. Ultimately, I know very little of any of you, including the most vocal and open...like, who are you people? I vaguely get the impression there's a hunk of oldy-moldies from the old BM days & another camp of college-age experimentalists...but that's certainly not everyone...
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Tyrannus
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Knowledge is Night
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Post by Tyrannus on Jul 20, 2017 15:41:31 GMT -5
Yeah I think that's a good point, that talking to folks online isn't really the same as actually knowing someone. Even a social media profile isn't really showing all of you, it's a carefully groomed (well there are varying degrees of carefulness) and curated series of snapshots of someone's life. It's on some level putting forth a certain image in and of itself, although often much more subtly than many artists would do. I think the fact that organizing live events is still somewhat challenging goes to show that the scene has a ways to go before it can be all that "social" in reality. Although maybe virtual reality is the best format to do our inter-dungeon communications, as sort of a last vestige of the spirit of isolation
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Post by Pilgrim's Shadow on Jul 20, 2017 17:06:13 GMT -5
If you are in an online group that loves the same music, it doesn't make it social, in my opinion. I think social music is something you'll listen with your friends in your home or in your car. For sure sometimes i listen with friends to DS (again, mostly at d&d sessions, but sometimes i go like "hey listen to this cool release"), but i enjoy it the best as an intimate (maybe even spiritual) experience.
I have to say that one of the things which hooked me into DS was the fact that it's artists are modest regular people. No poses, no politics, no "trying to be 100% technical prog" stuff. Just pure passion and honesty. Perhaps i am wrong, i am not sure because i'm quite new to the scene, but this is what i feel.
I do have a problem with artists which feel the need to shove their faces everywhere possible. That ruins their music for me.
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Alder
Magic User
Murky dungeon sounds: alderen.bandcamp.com
Posts: 228
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Post by Alder on Jul 20, 2017 20:24:03 GMT -5
If you are in an online group that loves the same music, it doesn't make it social, in my opinion. I think social music is something you'll listen with your friends in your home or in your car. For sure sometimes i listen with friends to DS (again, mostly at d&d sessions, but sometimes i go like "hey listen to this cool release"), but i enjoy it the best as an intimate (maybe even spiritual) experience. I have to say that one of the things which hooked me into DS was the fact that it's artists are modest regular people. No poses, no politics, no "trying to be 100% technical prog" stuff. Just pure passion and honesty. Perhaps i am wrong, i am not sure because i'm quite new to the scene, but this is what i feel. I do have a problem with artists which feel the need to shove their faces everywhere possible. That ruins their music for me. What, you've never done the bump-n-grind to Lord Lovidicus at a party? Jokes aside, I agree with everything you wrote here. Even the true/pure DS people are at least completely genuine about their policing of the genre.
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Post by crypticdungeon on Jul 22, 2017 6:42:22 GMT -5
Interesting topic. As most of you mentioned before, I also immediately think of Varg when thinking about this. And like many of you, I knew Varg's music before I knew much about his ideologies and such. I definitely do not agree with Varg's political stance and all the things he rambles about, but I still spin my Filosofem LP without caring about his ideas and just enjoying the release.
DS is surely a different story though. I find it interesting to see that thoughts about this are pretty divided. People saying with the social media stuff that the genre is very social, and people that say it isn't because you don't have that ''real life'' aspect, and people who are not sure if there even is a difference between ''social'' or ''not social'' music. I myself, in my humble opinion, think that all people make valid points here. It's definitely not like the ''no internet, only tape trading'' kind of thing from 90's black metal, but I do think DS is a pretty social genre. The difference here to me seems to be the time we're living in right now. Because of the internet, we can converse with and meet people who are also interested in DS, and as a result of that for most people (including me) the social aspect of DS is completely online. But I think if DS evolved 20 years earlier, we would have had the same tape trading real life scene as with the black metal back then. It's just we're living in a completely different world right now. So I do consider DS a ''social genre'' but it is different from ''real life'' social.
As for the person behind the music, I've got to agree with some points made earlier. If I like the person behind the project, it can enhance the listening experience for me. But if the person has ideologies (like Varg) I don't agree with, it doesn't really affect my listening experience at all. If however the person would just be a total dick to me personally or something (not that I have experienced that!) I don't think I'll be able to enjoy the music he made the same way.
Just sharing my thoughts on this interesting topic!
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Tyrannus
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Post by Tyrannus on Jul 22, 2017 8:54:19 GMT -5
So is the current "wave" of DS (3rd? 4th? 5th?) one of these so-called "internet genres" in a way? By that I mean a genre that wouldn't really exist if it weren't for the internet and is mostly just existing online. I feel like it isn't, exactly, however a lot of notable stuff goes on online and the internet has really shaped it in many ways. The social aspect is of course a big part of that.
I'm not sure if we've discussed this much but to what extent does image matter to you all? Do you like to see the artist in some kind of medieval or occult attire, or does that not matter at all? What role do you think having an image in your head of the artist matters, or does it matter? What role does imagery and visual work for a project in general have? I mean of course we'd all be inclined to say "well the music is all that really matters" but if that was the case there wouldn't be people putting so much energy into those other areas, right? For instance I feel like Old Tower benefits a lot from the visual aspect of his work, including artist photos. The music itself is of course excellent, but coupling it with that visual package makes it like a modern classic, to me. What do you all think of this visual factor? Both in terms of the art the artist uses and like photos and images depicting the artist, or lack thereof
Edit: haha you know Mortiis is probably an even more obvious example here, as far as discussing artist photos goes
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Post by setfiretostrawmen on Jul 22, 2017 15:16:27 GMT -5
Cool topic. Personally, and this is just my two cents, the less known about the artist the better in terms of appreciation of the project. I like the mystery of it. I guess that is why I so much enjoy some of these old tapes that are being put up on Youtube now.
As for the visual aspect, I can see how the artist's style/presence could heighten appreciation for the music, but this is not really the case with me--or, at least, it hasn't been as of yet. I don't make any conscious effort to separate art from artist in my mind, but I can't imagine a project whose music I enjoyed less because of how they presented themselves online or whatever. Again, just my two cents.
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Post by Pilgrim's Shadow on Jul 23, 2017 10:29:30 GMT -5
I think that the Visual atrwork of the album is importnat to get a glimpse of the specific atmosphere and colour of the music. In this internet Era, you are FLOODED with different music, trying to get you attention. So the artwork really helps me choose what new album i'd like to listen according to my current emotion. For example, if i'll see an old medieval drawing of a morbid concept in a black & White filter, i'd know it's kind of a medieval fantasy noise synth. of course, it is very general and it's not alwayes true, but this is my way to pick something fast.
For the artists in costume, well, it does not affect the listening of the music at all, but i admire the artistic passion in it. I think it is GREAT in concerts. I have much respect to musicians who present themselves as themselves, but going to a concert of musicians in costumes is knowing your going also to a Show, which is something different for me.
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Post by lusitano on Jul 23, 2017 12:19:07 GMT -5
I think that the Visual atrwork of the album is importnat to get a glimpse of the specific atmosphere and colour of the music. In this internet Era, you are FLOODED with different music, trying to get you attention. So the artwork really helps me choose what new album i'd like to listen according to my current emotion. I agree with this, there's a good number of bands that I wouldn't know if it wasn't for the album art. Later, the album art won't have any influence on my appreciation towards the album, but if I'm scrolling through a bunch of releases, it can be a decisive factor between listening to that album or not.
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Post by nahadoth on Jul 23, 2017 17:31:41 GMT -5
Just jumping onto the most recent thread in this conversation, I'd say that imagery, both visual direction and depiction of the artist(s) involved, usually only works for an initial hook to grab my attention or get me to listen. I think very rarely the visual direction sticks with me in the long run, especially since I'm listening digitally, on headphones, and not usually having much opportunity to examine the artwork in great detail.
I should also say that while sometimes, the cover increases my enjoyment of the music, it is very rare that a bad cover will DECREASE my enjoyment of the music, unless if it's an obvious joke.
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Post by thekeeper on Jul 24, 2017 11:34:36 GMT -5
So is the current "wave" of DS (3rd? 4th? 5th?) one of these so-called "internet genres" in a way? By that I mean a genre that wouldn't really exist if it weren't for the internet and is mostly just existing online. I feel like it isn't, exactly, however a lot of notable stuff goes on online and the internet has really shaped it in many ways. The social aspect is of course a big part of that. I'm not sure if we've discussed this much but to what extent does image matter to you all? Do you like to see the artist in some kind of medieval or occult attire, or does that not matter at all? What role do you think having an image in your head of the artist matters, or does it matter? What role does imagery and visual work for a project in general have? I mean of course we'd all be inclined to say "well the music is all that really matters" but if that was the case there wouldn't be people putting so much energy into those other areas, right? For instance I feel like Old Tower benefits a lot from the visual aspect of his work, including artist photos. The music itself is of course excellent, but coupling it with that visual package makes it like a modern classic, to me. What do you all think of this visual factor? Both in terms of the art the artist uses and like photos and images depicting the artist, or lack thereof Edit: haha you know Mortiis is probably an even more obvious example here, as far as discussing artist photos goes I'd say we're in the midst of the 3rd wave. I'd classify the 90s tape stuff as 1st, early BC stuff as 2nd, and now that we're branching out more into microgenres and expanding more, we're in wave 3. And I would say that DS is currently an 'internet genre', even though people might not like the sound of that. I don't see that term as a specifically negative thing, it just means that it came into fruition online. Even though DS existed before the internet scene, it wasn't connected as 'Dungeon Synth'. The term itself is specific to the internet. The vast majority of DS was born online, and physicals really only caught on among the internet scene after more labels started up, most was and still is just on bandcamp. I actually don't like artist pictures in DS. Some times it works well, like with Mortiis and Old Tower (your images are fitting as well), but I'd just prefer a lack of human presentation, or at least an obscured and weird one (grainy xerox stuff, some kind of mask, etc). This is probably a more recent opinion of mine. It doesn't make a very big impact on how I listen, but if I know how someone looks, sometimes that will pop into my head and kind of break up the mystique. Presentation can definitely enhance listening, but it doesn't typically diminish it. My opinions on album art are typically separate from the music itself. Even if I don't like the album art that much, I can still like the music, and the inverse can be true as well. I think I'll always enjoy xerox art, things with pen and pencil illustrations, and some basic digitally made art more than the real high quality stuff. I like 90s tape covers with easily recognizable stock fonts, clip art, things like that. This Cernunnos Woods promo cover is great in my eyes despite its simplicity. It's the most basic thing, but I love when metal bands use Papyrus typeface. I do have a soft spot for early digital art because its so goofy looking that it just feels strange. This Gloomy Grim cover art is kind of notorious for being bad but I absolutely love it. There's just something about that era of digital art that's so much more interesting than high quality detailed stuff that we have now. Same with early and mid 3d art in video games, it can add an otherworldly aspect. King's Field wouldn't be the same game if it had been made in 2015. Maybe it's something about the amateurish looks to what I've described so far that makes things just feel more personal and earnest.
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Tyrannus
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Knowledge is Night
Posts: 806
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Post by Tyrannus on Jul 24, 2017 11:45:31 GMT -5
So is the current "wave" of DS (3rd? 4th? 5th?) one of these so-called "internet genres" in a way? By that I mean a genre that wouldn't really exist if it weren't for the internet and is mostly just existing online. I feel like it isn't, exactly, however a lot of notable stuff goes on online and the internet has really shaped it in many ways. The social aspect is of course a big part of that. I'm not sure if we've discussed this much but to what extent does image matter to you all? Do you like to see the artist in some kind of medieval or occult attire, or does that not matter at all? What role do you think having an image in your head of the artist matters, or does it matter? What role does imagery and visual work for a project in general have? I mean of course we'd all be inclined to say "well the music is all that really matters" but if that was the case there wouldn't be people putting so much energy into those other areas, right? For instance I feel like Old Tower benefits a lot from the visual aspect of his work, including artist photos. The music itself is of course excellent, but coupling it with that visual package makes it like a modern classic, to me. What do you all think of this visual factor? Both in terms of the art the artist uses and like photos and images depicting the artist, or lack thereof Edit: haha you know Mortiis is probably an even more obvious example here, as far as discussing artist photos goes I'd say we're in the midst of the 3rd wave. I'd classify the 90s tape stuff as 1st, early BC stuff as 2nd, and now that we're branching out more into microgenres and expanding more, we're in wave 3. And I would say that DS is currently an 'internet genre', even though people might not like the sound of that. I don't see that term as a specifically negative thing, it just means that it came into fruition online. Even though DS existed before the internet scene, it wasn't connected as 'Dungeon Synth'. The term itself is specific to the internet. The vast majority of DS was born online, and physicals really only caught on among the internet scene after more labels started up, most was and still is just on bandcamp. I actually don't like artist pictures in DS. Some times it works well, like with Mortiis and Old Tower (your images are fitting as well), but I'd just prefer a lack of human presentation, or at least an obscured and weird one (grainy xerox stuff, some kind of mask, etc). This is probably a more recent opinion of mine. It doesn't make a very big impact on how I listen, but if I know how someone looks, sometimes that will pop into my head and kind of break up the mystique. Presentation can definitely enhance listening, but it doesn't typically diminish it. My opinions on album art are typically separate from the music itself. Even if I don't like the album art that much, I can still like the music, and the inverse can be true as well. I think I'll always enjoy xerox art, things with pen and pencil illustrations, and some basic digitally made art more than the real high quality stuff. I like 90s tape covers with easily recognizable stock fonts, clip art, things like that. This Cernunnos Woods promo cover is great in my eyes despite its simplicity. It's the most basic thing, but I love when metal bands use Papyrus typeface. I do have a soft spot for early digital art because its so goofy looking that it just feels strange. This Gloomy Grim cover art is kind of notorious for being bad but I absolutely love it. There's just something about that era of digital art that's so much more interesting than high quality detailed stuff that we have now. Same with early and mid 3d art in video games, it can add an otherworldly aspect. King's Field wouldn't be the same game if it had been made in 2015. Maybe it's something about the amateurish looks to what I've described so far that makes things just feel more personal and earnest. man I'd have to agree on so much of this. I'm not sure what it is about lower quality sounds and images that's just so damn appealing. Is it that it's more relatable? It has to go beyond that...there's something about the way the lack of quality obscures things...and in a way that comes across sounding more mystical and esoteric and primal versus just cheap and lazy and shitty. Although it's worth pointing out that a lot of people would describe the "mystical" stuff I like as cheap and lazy and shitty haha.
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Post by Pilgrim's Shadow on Jul 25, 2017 5:05:11 GMT -5
I'd say we're in the midst of the 3rd wave. I'd classify the 90s tape stuff as 1st, early BC stuff as 2nd, and now that we're branching out more into microgenres and expanding more, we're in wave 3. And I would say that DS is currently an 'internet genre', even though people might not like the sound of that. I don't see that term as a specifically negative thing, it just means that it came into fruition online. Even though DS existed before the internet scene, it wasn't connected as 'Dungeon Synth'. The term itself is specific to the internet. The vast majority of DS was born online, and physicals really only caught on among the internet scene after more labels started up, most was and still is just on bandcamp. I actually don't like artist pictures in DS. Some times it works well, like with Mortiis and Old Tower (your images are fitting as well), but I'd just prefer a lack of human presentation, or at least an obscured and weird one (grainy xerox stuff, some kind of mask, etc). This is probably a more recent opinion of mine. It doesn't make a very big impact on how I listen, but if I know how someone looks, sometimes that will pop into my head and kind of break up the mystique. Presentation can definitely enhance listening, but it doesn't typically diminish it. My opinions on album art are typically separate from the music itself. Even if I don't like the album art that much, I can still like the music, and the inverse can be true as well. I think I'll always enjoy xerox art, things with pen and pencil illustrations, and some basic digitally made art more than the real high quality stuff. I like 90s tape covers with easily recognizable stock fonts, clip art, things like that. This Cernunnos Woods promo cover is great in my eyes despite its simplicity. It's the most basic thing, but I love when metal bands use Papyrus typeface. I do have a soft spot for early digital art because its so goofy looking that it just feels strange. This Gloomy Grim cover art is kind of notorious for being bad but I absolutely love it. There's just something about that era of digital art that's so much more interesting than high quality detailed stuff that we have now. Same with early and mid 3d art in video games, it can add an otherworldly aspect. King's Field wouldn't be the same game if it had been made in 2015. Maybe it's something about the amateurish looks to what I've described so far that makes things just feel more personal and earnest. man I'd have to agree on so much of this. I'm not sure what it is about lower quality sounds and images that's just so damn appealing. Is it that it's more relatable? It has to go beyond that...there's something about the way the lack of quality obscures things...and in a way that comes across sounding more mystical and esoteric and primal versus just cheap and lazy and shitty. Although it's worth pointing out that a lot of people would describe the "mystical" stuff I like as cheap and lazy and shitty haha. Mystical and obscure artwork is the reminder that this is a home-made passionate art. I personaly love it. The "problem" is that most people think that if the artwork or the music is not a gigantic production with tons of advertising, than it is shity, and mainly lazy. It's pop culture point of view.
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olofdigre
Knight
digre.bandcamp.com
Posts: 376
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Post by olofdigre on Jul 25, 2017 5:22:42 GMT -5
Yeah while having somebody else write your music and lyrics is the opposite. That does not mean that all pop is crap. But all crap is pop... at least all pop since 1996. The quality of low-fi and no-fi music is how it is presented and what is the purpose of the music. Hammering a few chords to a tape and run it through a reverb and pasting a monochrome picture of a castle does not make it quality dungeon synth. But I can imagine some great music done just as so. It is not only the sound it is the package as well. I say. So the person behind the project is important to me. That person needs to put his heart and soul into the project and even if it is a childish drawing or a nice picture or whatever as a cover it is ok with me but it need to be an honest attempt.
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Post by Pilgrim's Shadow on Aug 13, 2017 10:24:36 GMT -5
So, why do you think most of the artists stay anonymous? I wondered this for a lot of time without even notice it, since it is an obvious question. Still, i have no answear. I think that it might have something to do with the internet culture of DS? Perhaps it is just like most of us in the forum stay anonymous as well?
what do you guys think?
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