Tyrannus
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Post by Tyrannus on Aug 24, 2017 14:56:23 GMT -5
Hello, here I am with another somewhat general topic to ponder about. I would like to discuss the notion of "Western Fantasy" themes and the extent to which those are essential/important in Dungeon Synth. This has come to me as a couple of things have been going on:
1) Well this first occurrence in my life is a bit unrelated to music but it's important to this topic anyway. I've been revisiting many older Castlevania games (mostly Aria of Sorrow) as well as watching some anime that deal with fantasy in a more western context (Specifically the Fate franchise). I've been thinking, as a result, of the sort of rift between "Western" and "Eastern" fantasy themes, and the cultural mythologies that feed into fantasy's manifestation in different parts of the world. I find it interesting that Western fantasy has popularity all over the world (which isn't to say that Eastern fantasy lacks international appeal) and I started thinking about the implications of that. Despite being Japanese, I think the Castlevania franchise certainly embodies a distinctly "dungeonesque" feeling, and it could well have served as a direct or indirect inspiration for some Dungeon Synth music (which is a claim I make based on the game's age and the fact that I've seen it come up in conversation). Is that weird, for a nonwestern interpretation of western fantasy themes to be so effective and influential? What about Final Fantasy, another franchise whose music I've seen come up in the context of influencing Dungeon Synth?
2) I've been seeing more and more Dungeon Synth deviating from the traditional path of this thematic focus on western fantasy. One recent release that really stood out in this regard was that Anubis album, which I'll admit I haven't listened to, so I don't really have the full story on that album. But just its release and association with the Dungeon Synth tag was really interesting to me, sine it's so distinctly nonwestern. Also I believe Argonath released something based on Chinese mythology recently. So I've been wondering to what extent that notion of western fantasy is crucial for something to be called Dungeon Synth. I mean it was known as "fantasy music" to some for a while, does that mean anything? As we've discussed elsewhere, DS can deal a lot with escapism and fantastical themes outside of the Tolkien-style, but the more we diverge from that does that weaken the cohesion of the genre? I have always felt of DS as being a cohesive genre not strictly from a sonic standpoint but largely from a thematic/aesthetic one as well. But it's becoming harder, I feel, to sum up the genre in terms of theme or sound. There's such a variety of things that are called DS now and I'd be curious to see how people's definitions of the genre are changing and whatnot.
So I guess in closing I'll just put a bunch of questions out there: Are western fantasy themes important for DS? Can something be distinctly nonwestern in nature and still be DS? Is nonwestern instrumentation (synthesized sitars for instance) out of place in DS? Can DS just be about anything? What are the limitations? Is there a sonic cohesion in the genre? What is holding it all together? What would prevent something from being DS? Is Jim Kirkwood DS or not? What even is Dungeon Synth? How do we define it anymore?
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Post by thekeeper on Aug 24, 2017 16:41:50 GMT -5
Big topic here. I've observed this as well, the breadth of fantasy topics has slowly been widening outside of a purely western scope, which I think is pretty kool. Non-western themes in DS are refreshing. I'd fear that we'd beat western themes to death to the point where its no longer escapist and transportative, but that hasn't happened yet and I'm not sure if that is a potential situation. But yeah, Anubis and Xingtian are very welcome additions to the DS canon. I don't think non-western themes are unwelcomed to DS in any form, spirit, sound, whatever. If anything branching out of purely western fantasy themes will be good for the longevity of the genre. If things only revolve around swords & sorcery stuff, things might get stale. There are sonic elements that are attributed to these themes as well: medieval, renaissance, early music, certain instruments, certain keys and even melodies. Widening the scope outside of knight-core can be good to introduce new compositional elements. I don't even think that things have be to be regionally described either, west or east. There are lot of projects revolving around entirely made-up fantasy worlds that aren't traditionally western like Vagor. Likely inspired by western fantasy, but it's still abstract and different enough to be its own thing. We can have traditionally focused Egyptian and Chinese stuff as well as things that don't exist. I would say that there are Lovecraftian-themed projects, but his stuff is still western, outside of the old ones/dimensional weirdness settings and the like. If fantasy is inherent to DS, that includes all iterations of fantasy, previously existing or purely/abstractly imaginative. I think vgm influenced DS is valid, as well.
So then if we can agree that fantasy in a non-regional sense is valid to DS, what are the genre's cohesion points and defining characteristics? It's likely in the sounds we choose to compose the music combined with what we've discussed before about transportative or escapist intention and a kind of reclusive honesty. There are common influences of bm, drone, industrial, classical, and dark ambient music (and noise) that turn the fantastical visions into a musical channeling; so of course, not everything fantasy-centric is dungeon synth. I might need more time to ponder this. There is a point where something becomes 'not DS', but I don't think we're at the point where sub-styles within DS have become so branched that they're something else entirely, just iterations and different takes on what DS does and the feelings and images it evokes.
tl;dr: Are western fantasy themes important for DS? Not necessarily, it's just a dominant common language of fantasy now for most of the world of media. Can something be distinctly nonwestern in nature and still be DS? Of course. Is nonwestern instrumentation (synthesized sitars for instance) out of place in DS? Not at all. We have lots of DS sounds and synthesized instrumentation not modeled after traditional instruments. Can DS just be about anything? What are the limitations? I want to say that DS has to be about fantasy, but DS can easily revolve around history as well. We have DS about religion, too. I don't think we've found the thematic limitations yet. Is there a sonic cohesion in the genre? What is holding it all together? What would prevent something from being DS? Is Jim Kirkwood DS or not? For the most part, I'd say yes. It's hard to say what's holding it all together. We're all influencing each other at the moment, the dedicated yet small artist and fan-base keeps it all afloat and creates the language. I actually don't consider Kirkwood DS, moreso proto-DS, but I guess my opinion is largely based on the kinds of themes that started with Mortiis that have come to embody the escape/transport component of DS. What even is Dungeon Synth? How do we define it anymore? Good question.
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Tyrannus
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Knowledge is Night
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Post by Tyrannus on Aug 24, 2017 17:49:27 GMT -5
Can DS just be about anything? What are the limitations?
I want to say that DS has to be about fantasy, but DS can easily revolve around history as well. We have DS about religion, too. I don't think we've found the thematic limitations yet.
Can DS be modern? Can it be sci-fi? Can it be urban? Could it be that it has to be about fantasy, but fantasy just has a broader definition than we'd thought?
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Post by thekeeper on Aug 24, 2017 18:01:14 GMT -5
Can DS just be about anything? What are the limitations?
I want to say that DS has to be about fantasy, but DS can easily revolve around history as well. We have DS about religion, too. I don't think we've found the thematic limitations yet.
Can DS be modern? Can it be sci-fi? Can it be urban? Could it be that it has to be about fantasy, but fantasy just has a broader definition than we'd thought? Yeah, I think to some degree it can be all of those. Fantasy can be a very abstract thing if we want it to be. I've always wanted to see a pulpy sci-fi DS project. Solanum is pretty astral and spacey, Hedge Wizard's Local Portal is kind of urban in that it re-contextualizes the urban in a fantastical way (at least that's how I saw it, a "fantasy within the urban" kind of thing). Trying to think of an example of thematically modern DS but nothing comes to mind. I think ~post-ds~ deals with modernity in a way, the conflict of the living modern and immaterial fantasy.
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Tyrannus
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Post by Tyrannus on Aug 24, 2017 18:20:25 GMT -5
Is there any risk of like a spiritual dissolution of the genre if the definition is too inclusive? Or is it that there's some definitive spirit that is prevalent in all this music we call dungeon synth? I think part of what makes DS what it is is in fact that kind of sincere, earnest, DIY synth spirit that unites the genre. I think that's really what provides the cohesion. And I think that's why the subgenres can still be tied in so readily, because despite sonic and thematic differences it's really that bedroom wistfulness that ties it all together. Like a dungeon of the soul from which this music flows and to which it ultimately returns. This notion keeps coming up, this passion and sincerity. It's not that this is absent in other genres, so what makes it so important and prevalent here?
Is this earnest spiritual solidarity the only common ground? I wonder about alternative tags for certain DS projects, mostly mine, and feel like they could readily be called something else. Is the significance of tagging an album as DS more of an indicator of certain emotional properties versus aural ones? I know with my Black Sun demo I tried to distill the genre down to its rawest essence, and in doing so ended up with something which could more easily be called a noise album. What is the raw essence of the genre, to you? Is it in fact this sincere emotion, this personal quality, that really supersedes other musical conventions? What limitations could such a notion possibly hold?
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Alder
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Post by Alder on Aug 25, 2017 10:52:08 GMT -5
Is there any risk of like a spiritual dissolution of the genre if the definition is too inclusive? Or is it that there's some definitive spirit that is prevalent in all this music we call dungeon synth? I think it was you I once saw write something about Dungeon Synth being more of a medium than a genre. This makes a lot of sense to me. Some people use oil paints to create still lifes, daily scenes, landscapes. Shadow and light shifts from work to work, texture varies wildly, yet all retain a certain cohesion in medium. I think part of what makes DS what it is is in fact that kind of sincere, earnest, DIY synth spirit that unites the genre. I think that's really what provides the cohesion. And I think that's why the subgenres can still be tied in so readily, because despite sonic and thematic differences it's really that bedroom wistfulness that ties it all together. Like a dungeon of the soul from which this music flows and to which it ultimately returns. This notion keeps coming up, this passion and sincerity. It's not that this is absent in other genres, so what makes it so important and prevalent here? I used to agree 100% with this, but the hype over that Thangorodrim release has made me wonder - how far into the fanbase does the sincerity extend? Is that just something we believe in as makers/curators/big-enough-DS-nerds-to-be-discussing-it-on-proboards? I suppose it doesn't matter too much, but while I have almost no concern that no one will want to listen to my work, I worry more that it will be passed around as a novelty/aberration. Something we all seem to be collectively driving at with this Dungeon music is the creation of a massive library of tales and characters, maps and legends of places that are not, have never been, and will not yet come to be. What I'm vaguely driving at is I think the actual glue of DS is use as a medium for storytelling, which incidentally fosters sincerity. Also, I think the banner of "Dungeon Synth" should generally be restricted to tales involving dungeons and/or the lands which could contain such places (not necessarily western, but I've yet to hear of DSers not hailing from the Western World). Interpretation of this is up to the artist. If one wants to do similar storytelling music with themes of living on a grungy space station, give it a new tag (any ideas?). It seems some folks view the proliferation of "X-synth" genre tags as silly, superfluous, or muddling, but I think we should support them for marginal/out-of-bounds DS stuff...but then again I simply love breaking down sub-sub-genres as if I were a paleontologist making cladeograms...
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Tyrannus
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Post by Tyrannus on Aug 25, 2017 14:01:09 GMT -5
Is there any risk of like a spiritual dissolution of the genre if the definition is too inclusive? Or is it that there's some definitive spirit that is prevalent in all this music we call dungeon synth? I think it was you I once saw write something about Dungeon Synth being more of a medium than a genre. This makes a lot of sense to me. Some people use oil paints to create still lifes, daily scenes, landscapes. Shadow and light shifts from work to work, texture varies wildly, yet all retain a certain cohesion in medium. I think part of what makes DS what it is is in fact that kind of sincere, earnest, DIY synth spirit that unites the genre. I think that's really what provides the cohesion. And I think that's why the subgenres can still be tied in so readily, because despite sonic and thematic differences it's really that bedroom wistfulness that ties it all together. Like a dungeon of the soul from which this music flows and to which it ultimately returns. This notion keeps coming up, this passion and sincerity. It's not that this is absent in other genres, so what makes it so important and prevalent here? I used to agree 100% with this, but the hype over that Thangorodrim release has made me wonder - how far into the fanbase does the sincerity extend? Is that just something we believe in as makers/curators/big-enough-DS-nerds-to-be-discussing-it-on-proboards? I suppose it doesn't matter too much, but while I have almost no concern that no one will want to listen to my work, I worry more that it will be passed around as a novelty/aberration. Something we all seem to be collectively driving at with this Dungeon music is the creation of a massive library of tales and characters, maps and legends of places that are not, have never been, and will not yet come to be. What I'm vaguely driving at is I think the actual glue of DS is use as a medium for storytelling, which incidentally fosters sincerity. Also, I think the banner of "Dungeon Synth" should generally be restricted to tales involving dungeons and/or the lands which could contain such places (not necessarily western, but I've yet to hear of DSers not hailing from the Western World). Interpretation of this is up to the artist. If one wants to do similar storytelling music with themes of living on a grungy space station, give it a new tag (any ideas?). It seems some folks view the proliferation of "X-synth" genre tags as silly, superfluous, or muddling, but I think we should support them for marginal/out-of-bounds DS stuff...but then again I simply love breaking down sub-sub-genres as if I were a paleontologist making cladeograms... This Thangorodrim album and its reception have been really fascinating to me. It's one of the few instances where I feel like it was the idea of that album and not the actual music that seemed to drive sales. Like the notion of getting it on tape was what motivated people. I mean given how quickly it sold out, I'm sure a lot of people didn't even listen to it first. Which is not bad, I just find it interesting. But it does make me question the sincerity a bit...what exactly are people paying for? Some of these labels I feel are really pushing the genre in an uncouth direction. I feel there's this monetization and commercialization and commoditization of the music going on. I'm tired of being inundated in announcements for limited edition releases I don't care about. I'm opposed to generating hype. This is why I never announce anything I do in advanced, because I don't want people to develop particular expectations. Labels like OWW still retain a dungeon magic to me, but not every label I think is embodying what the music is about (or has been about in times past). Part of the appeal of DS for me was its modesty and humility, and how it didn't have this monetary pretension. I'm wondering to what extent "dungeon synth" is going to be a useful term in the future. I used to be very grateful to the tag's existence for unifying so much music I could relate to. But so much of the music now feels so sterile and dull to me, such that calling an album "dungeon synth" doesn't fill me with the pleasant expectations it used to. Maybe the sub genre terms will be more valuable in years to come as more and more of this music is made. I guess I'm just depressed that my values don't seem to line up with those of the larger community in the way I once thought they did
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Post by Pilgrim's Shadow on Aug 26, 2017 10:22:56 GMT -5
For sure the westren fantasy theme is the root and an important role in Dungeon Synth, but i see a lots of albums which brings more of general themes that are inspired from our natural feelings, and life sobjects, taking role in dreamscape music. "Roman Master" for example, is not necesserily 'Fantasy', but more of general self defeat and death in war. War is fantasy? it is also fantasy and History, and it is also eternal. Winter has lots of role in fantasy litreture and DS, but it is also reality. For sure true winter is not as dramatic as in fantasy, but the feelings it bring us in reality are just as true, and this is what comes on the sound of the DS artists if he is inspired by winter. So i would say that obscure ways to tell natural feelings & general dreamscape through music is the real core of DS. We all have these thought and feelings, westren fantasy is another culture to express them. That leads me to the thought, can DS be 100% realistic and non-spiritual? i do not bealive so, what do you think? For the questions: Are western fantasy themes important for DS?They only need to be respected as an important root. Can something be distinctly nonwestern in nature and still be DS?For Sure. Is nonwestern instrumentation (synthesized sitars for instance) out of place in DS?It will be very unfortunate. Can DS just be about anything? What are the limitations?As i wrote above, i bealive DS is about Dreamscape, and express of natural feeling. Is there a sonic cohesion in the genre? What is holding it all together? What would prevent something from being DS? Is Jim Kirkwood DS or not?Perhaps Jim Kirkwood is not DS only because there was no name for this ganre back then, just like the Dark-Ambient albums of Burzum are Dark-Ambient and not DS, but they are both obscure and outworldy, so i would say YES, for me Jim Kirkwood is definitly creating DS music. What even is Dungeon Synth? How do we define it anymore?It is indeed a good question, but i do have some thoughts. Synthesizers and electronics, for example. Can one create a DS album using only acoustic instruments? i do not bealive, but i might be wrong. I bealive that it has to have some degree of outworldy obscurity, and connection to natural elements such as seasons, feelings, need to adventure, etc. I also think that a core rule in DS is to be open-minded to new things and themes, so maybe this is the core of confusion. Perhaps it is more easy to explain what is NOT DS haha Can DS be modern? Can it be sci-fi? Can it be urban?
It can be all those three, as long as it has the outworldly escapist element in it. Could it be that it has to be about fantasy, but fantasy just has a broader definition than we'd thought?Well perhaps the Outworldly theme i am talking so much about is just this boarder definition of Fantasy? and interesting point. Let us not forget about Satanic DS as well and religous ones. BTW, i have posted it already somewhere on the forum, but this is a good link to this thread. It is an old-school 1994 Oriental DS album from Israel, a side project from the vocalist of the black metal band "Melechesh".
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