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Post by nahadoth on Nov 19, 2017 14:13:04 GMT -5
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Post by thekeeper on Nov 19, 2017 17:19:34 GMT -5
I like that someone's giving things fair critique. I agree with them about DS commentary nearly always being either all praise or some kind of blanket negativity without much insight. Andrew's blog did some good reviews, including his 'liveposting' listens on here. Some of the other non-ds specific blogs who cover the genre gave some good input as well, but most were generally positive, not very many criticisms (but honestly I don't remember). I try to do the same myself when giving input on someone's stuff. Important to think things through.
Feel like these reviews could be a little more in depth, though. Some are fairly short, but I like the honesty.
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Post by nahadoth on Nov 19, 2017 22:09:51 GMT -5
yeah, these remind me a bit of the liveposting listens. Will be interesting to see if this keeps momentum.
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Post by andrewwerdna on Nov 20, 2017 1:41:31 GMT -5
Wow, I think these reviews are great so far, well-written, concrete, and not shying away from criticism. I see what you mean by "fess up" though, the writing style seems familiar but I can't quite place it. Anyways, assuming the author is reading this, keep up the good work!
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Erang
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Post by Erang on Nov 20, 2017 3:21:30 GMT -5
I like it too : always a nice thing to have new blogs doing reviews and specialy when it's well written like here. Good job!
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Post by crypticdungeon on Nov 20, 2017 8:19:31 GMT -5
Actually, I kind of like the shorter reviews. I know it's maybe not very ''DS-like'' or something, but in terms of reading articles or reviews or those kinds of texts, I mostly don't really like long texts. I enjoy reading, but I can't concentrate on a review that takes half an hour to read. These are just fine in length Oh, and oh my... What a humbling review they wrote about Ataraxia. If you're reading this, thanks a lot!
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Post by thekeeper on Nov 20, 2017 16:23:27 GMT -5
This is an interesting point and something that I've questioned recently. Just what does 'old school' mean to the artists who use the term to describe their music? Old school and 'traditional' seem to be used interchangeably, yet often times it only acts as a signifier of either the inspiration of some instrument choices or how closely it tries to sound like the last two era one Mortiis albums. What 90s artists are in the realm of this old school sound these new artists are referencing? To me it seems to be solely Depressive Silence and Mortiis, not really anyone else. The Carnfexian album uses 'old school' to describe itself, yet like this review said, it's really only 'old school' in some of its synth choices, otherwise it's much moreso 'new school' in terms of composition. Thangorodrim is probably the most renowned old school artist but his work only falls under that term due to its adherence to the sound of Kaiser and Anden. Its old school in terms of being extremely Mortiis-y, not that its following the 'traditions of the old lords' or whatever aside from Mortiis himself (I was actually quite disappointed in the recent album. TNF was quite Mortiis-y but it was still itself in sound, I liked it, but I found the new album extremely predictable and lacking an individual draw). If it's 'old school', its only drawing inspiration from maybe three 90s artists at the most.
When I made my 'old school' and lo-fi chart, I categorized those albums based on how they felt and the kind of spirit they had, inspired by a wide-breadth of DS artists, new and old, but still came at their music and sound in the overtly personal DIY way old school artists did, typically under some kind of hardware limitations or a 'do what you can with what you've got' kind of thing, featuring relatively simplistic lines of medieval-bent atmosphere-heavy composition, not really going for too ornate or large of a sound (exceptions, of course; I'm unsure if I can fully articulate my own definition). That's more old school to me than many of the symphonic projects. I don't really equate these big cinematic and booming sounds with the 'old school' that much at all. I believe the second Murgrind album started that new school cinematic bend that hearkens heavily to an expanded Kaiser/Anden sound. Of course, I'm not trying to say that epic/symphonic projects aren't as good or that they're 'not as DS' as more lo-fi projects, there are many epic projects I enjoy, though not typically as much as more lo-fi or minimal projects. This is really just personal preference.
The new Catacombs Enshadowed/Bastard Sword split is heavily described as old school and traditional as well, and I'm still not sure who is included in this frame of reference other than Mortiis (pertaining to the Bastard Sword side). The Catacombs side of the split is great, even uses MIDI harpsichord. Interesting composition and some nice variation. Not entirely sure what they mean by "dark devotion to the traditions of old", though. They have their own sound, their own way of composing, so the traditions here must be in regard to the spirit of DS itself rather than the ways 'trad/OS DS' is currently being used. I think I'm in agreement there. Catacombs is its own thing but it does feel older despite its newness and individuality. The Bastard Sword side does not seem to have its own sound. Sounds like it's going for that Kaiser/Anden thing, but for being described as "forged in the fires of the past with strict adherence to the spirit of 90's black metal and dark dungeon music", I wouldn't say that's too fitting. It's really just Thangorodrim worship with some hints of Spectral Kingdom's emotive orchestration (no slight to Adam, I entirely adore his work) with a short Sequestered Keep track added in. It's not like it's a bad sound, it's pleasant to listen to, but I don't think it's memorable and I think adherence to being traditional/old school here is its detriment. I also noticed that Bastard Sword doesn't use 'dungeon synth' to describe itself, instead opting for 'dark dungeon music' (obvious Mortiis reference), and 'Battle Synth'. Carnifexian describes itself as Battle Synth as well. I'm curious if this is a separatist notion.
What does 'old school' mean to everyone else? I think Neverlur is the most recent artist who very old school to me.
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Post by Witherer on Nov 20, 2017 16:51:30 GMT -5
What does 'old school' mean to everyone else? When I see the term applied to a modern release I've come to expect something leaning towards the darker end of the spectrum and something purposely and specifically adhering to the tenets of "True" DS (high effort, no experimental/gimmick, BM roots, some production). I think that truly Old School would not be as popular since the sound has been done enough already and is less novel, also it was often more raw and primitive and minimal than today's high profile Old School releases. There is a difference between using the term to mean that their approach is Old School and to mean that their influence is Old School and building on that.
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Post by thekeeper on Nov 20, 2017 17:10:52 GMT -5
What does 'old school' mean to everyone else? When I see the term applied to a modern release I've come to expect something leaning towards the darker end of the spectrum and something purposely and specifically adhering to the tenets of "True" DS (high effort, no experimental/gimmick, BM roots, some production). I think that truly Old School would not be as popular since the sound has been done enough already and is less novel, also it was often more raw and primitive and minimal than today's high profile Old School releases. There is a difference between using the term to mean that their approach is Old School and to mean that their influence is Old School and building on that. That sounds about right for typical components of the 'true' kinds of releases. I think 'truly old school' is broader than how OS is used now. Neverlur sounds legitimately old school to me and people have taken to him quite fondly. Old Tower is quite old school and he's extremely well regarded, though I did think Rise, his most popular album, was rather unlike his early work which I enjoyed much more; to me, Rise seemed more like a typical new Mortiis-y album and I would say it's the least old school of his stuff, though some might argue the opposite. I agree on the difference between old school in approach versus influence, and these do often overlap. I think most high profile old school releases are fairly ambiguous in old school inspiration though, aside from clear Mortiis and Depressive Silence influence. I suppose that still counts as being old school, just in a small scope.
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Post by crypticdungeon on Nov 20, 2017 17:17:11 GMT -5
I think, and don't take this the wrong way, that there are a lot of artists, especially newer artists, that use the term ''old school'' in DS just to draw more attention from the DS enthusiasts that like well-known Mortiis stuff and such. Just to say something like ''Hey, if you like Mortiis, you'll love my project''. And I see the term a lot. And when I say a lot, I mean a lot. It feels as though 50% of the DS releases I come across uses the term ''old school'' to describe some aspect of their music. That said and this small rant aside, there definitely are some newer artists out there that make justified use of the term ''old school'' because their music genuinely feels like the DS of back in the 90's.
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Tyrannus
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Post by Tyrannus on Nov 20, 2017 17:20:47 GMT -5
I was glad the blog brought up this old school debate. All this modern hi-fi stuff is not old school at all to me. It all sounds like Murgrind to me which in turn just sounds like a more hi-fi reinterpretation of some early Mortiis. Some of this modern stuff like Old Tower I like because to me it sounds like that classic Mortiis more than many other of these projects. But little of it does much for me other than reminded me of this sort of singular old aesthetic. It doesn’t do much for me beside being nice background music for me.
However the gritty lo-fi stuff, the experimenters, the outsiders...those are the real deal to me. Neither of these modern camps really “sound like” old school dungeon synth to me, partly because there’s not a single old school dungeon synth sound. There was actually a pretty healthy and interesting diversity and that’s part of what made it so interesting. That’s why I like the modern lo-fi camp because it more spiritually reminds me of real old school stuff. The hi-fi guys revere a very narrow array of sounds imo, and I don’t find the sonic limitations that they impose upon the genre to be conducive to making interesting music. I’m kind of glad that the hi-fi guys are starting to not call themselves Dungeon Synth anymore
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Post by nahadoth on Nov 20, 2017 17:54:24 GMT -5
I think the approach vs influence of Ye Olde Schoole is an important distinction. If it was approach, it would be everything recorded onto four track, using only technology available in the early to mid 90s. But by that definition the first two Nahadoth releases would be Old School, and I feel like that's a categorization most people would reject for that music. It's pretty clear that half the time the term old school is thrown around, it is used as a signifier of spirit or intent rather than a descriptor of the music. As thekeeper says, it will be interesting to see where the terminology starts to diverge - if Battle synth (which is probably the same as Barbarian synth which was used a lot end of 2016) takes on, or if dark Dungeon music reemerges as a main description for music in that style. But it's definitely worth gadflying this stuff imo, since it doesn't actually take an agenda to see that the term is getting used to describe a wide variety of actual sounds that are only unified by intent more than sonic similarity.
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Post by thekeeper on Nov 20, 2017 17:57:27 GMT -5
I think, and don't take this the wrong way, that there are a lot of artists, especially newer artists, that use the term ''old school'' in DS just to draw more attention from the DS enthusiasts that like well-known Mortiis stuff and such. Just to say something like ''Hey, if you like Mortiis, you'll love my project''. And I see the term a lot. And when I say a lot, I mean a lot. It feels as though 50% of the DS releases I come across uses the term ''old school'' to describe some aspect of their music. That said and this small rant aside, there definitely are some newer artists out there that make justified use of the term ''old school'' because their music genuinely feels like the DS of back in the 90's. Yeah, I see "if you like Mortiis, then you'll like me" quite often, as do I see 'old school' used somewhat flippantly. I don't think its always used for marketing or fan-gathering reasons, maybe some times, but I do think many people connect the most with 90s tapes and since their inspiration comes from this kind of 'root' a lot of people tag on 'old school' even if that may be arguable. There are probably more artists who don't label themselves as old school who I find more 'old school' than artists who consciously/explicitly identify as such. Neither of these modern camps really “sound like” old school dungeon synth to me, partly because there’s not a single old school dungeon synth sound. There was actually a pretty healthy and interesting diversity and that’s part of what made it so interesting. Absolutely, I don't think many realize how different some 90s artists sounded when compared. Cernunnos Woods, Olgerd, Depressive Silence, Lailheb, Caduceus, Bacchia Neraida: they're all very different projects. The term 'old school' now, at least among the high-profile projects the term is applied to, is most often used to refer to a heavy-inspiration from, and a similar but more refined approach to the sound of three albums: Kaiser and Anden by Mortiis, and Mourning by Depressive Silence. The scope seems overtly specific. Ah, Narghaash is another that feels quite old school.
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Tyrannus
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Post by Tyrannus on Nov 20, 2017 18:26:05 GMT -5
I honestly have never listened to much of Kaiser or Anden, just Født and Long Forgotten Ghost. I think that style he moved more into has never been my favorite. We’ve hinted at this before but I think there are kind of two main types of DS fans: team Mortiis and team Burzum. I feel like many people who got into the genre through Mortiis prefer the hi-fi sound whereas Burzum fans tend to like it lo-fi, just from my experience. Fans of the Burzum style appreciate that murky and solitary feeling, and like their music to sound like it was made by just a guy in a room with a keyboard. I think Mortiis fans are all about their imagery and worldbuilding and bombast, as well as upholding a particular sense of tradition. They end up feeling like two very different ways to interpret the music to me, and while you can like both groups I think we can all point at one or the other as being more integral to our introduction to the genre. I come from the Varg side and thus love all the lo-fi amateur darkness (which I think is more present in early Mortiis too but not as much in Kaiser and Anden)
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Post by crypticdungeon on Nov 20, 2017 20:11:50 GMT -5
I honestly have never listened to much of Kaiser or Anden, just Født and Long Forgotten Ghost. I think that style he moved more into has never been my favorite. We’ve hinted at this before but I think there are kind of two main types of DS fans: team Mortiis and team Burzum. I feel like many people who got into the genre through Mortiis prefer the hi-fi sound whereas Burzum fans tend to like it lo-fi, just from my experience. Fans of the Burzum style appreciate that murky and solitary feeling, and like their music to sound like it was made by just a guy in a room with a keyboard. I think Mortiis fans are all about their imagery and worldbuilding and bombast, as well as upholding a particular sense of tradition. They end up feeling like two very different ways to interpret the music to me, and while you can like both groups I think we can all point at one or the other as being more integral to our introduction to the genre. I come from the Varg side and thus love all the lo-fi amateur darkness (which I think is more present in early Mortiis too but not as much in Kaiser and Anden) I actually prefer Burzum over Mortiis, but when it comes to lo-fi vs hi-fi I don't really have a preference. It depends on what I'm feeling like and the music I'm interested in comes like in waves. Right now I'm really having that wave of super cheesy 80's, 90's and 00's power metal (which is pretty off topic here, sorry).
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