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Post by barrowmound on Aug 22, 2018 6:49:46 GMT -5
"How important is music theory to you in composing dungeon synth?" Well, as I've already stated in other topics I have absolutely zero knowledge in music theory. Absolutely none, being scales, notes or rhythm and tempo : except when it's in 4/4, I couldn't tell you what's the tempo of my songs... and I'll even go as far as saying that I have no real knowledge about equipement as well, being software or hardware : I still really don't know what all the knobs on my compressor really do, or on my reverb, etc. I just tweek them until it pleases my ears... and I make music since 20 years now... Of course, one could say " well, this guy makes music during 20 fucking years and he still doesn't know the tempo of his song or what a compressor do? Is he dumb or what? " No, I'm not dumb but the thing is that (and this is a very personal thing, not an "advice" for everybody) making art, for me, is the only thing that still keeps some kind of purity and innocence, if I may say so... it's the last tiny link to my childhood that still there... I still make music like I did when I was 14 or when I was drawing as a child : without having a clue about what I'm doing and just enjoying it and expressing my feelings in a raw & sincere way... And I also love all the happy accidents that happen when you play with notes without knowing what you do... Of course, on the opposite, when I have a clear progression in my mind that I want to transpose I sometimes struggle for hours because I don't know chord theory, etc. but that's not a problem to me. I know a lot of people who know theory will disagree with me by saying that "knowing theory will expand your creativity and never stop it" and I'm sure they are right, really... but it's hard to explain for me and it goes beyond creativity : I want to walk blind... and just knowing that I "know the trick" is killing the magic for me. All the little music "tricks" that I've found by myself during all the years making music are all those that stoped to be fun to play with. Again it's like a magician : when you know how it works, it loses some charm. Furthermore, I don't consider myself as a musician. I consider myself as a creative person. Or even an artist (in the sense that " I make art " and not in a pompous way)... and if I sometimes write or draw I don't consider myself as a writer or an illustrator. On a side note to this topic I'd like to add that I'm not a "professional" in any ways and I never want to be one : I hate that word because to me it's a word that belong to the industry or companies world. That's why I'm sometimes puzzled when I read on facebook people saying that Dungeon Synth musicians "have to be professional" or must "improve quality" like if we were talking about a fucking company or an iPhone or any product... We are surrounded by optimised process and soulless manufactured product everywhere : can't we just keep one little thing "genuine" and spontaneous for a little while?... Of course, I respect those who make music for a living and have to be professional but it's not the case for me... I just make art because it keeps me alive and relativily sane... I'm aware that I'm replying to a somewhat old thread so apologies if this is breaking a guideline that I'm not yet aware of. But this astounds me. Erang, you are possibly my favourite DS artist, top 3 definitely, and when listening to your work I was SURE that you would be well-versed in theory. It's astonishing to me that you've written Day of the Troll and True Alchemy Never Dies without being aware of the concepts you've unknowingly (and masterfully!) used. Makes your work even more impressive. In general, DS is very simple theory-wise with the exception of a few artists, notably Chaucerian Myth. A large amount of the music uses the natural minor or Aeolian scale, with Phrygian and Dorian also being common. Perhaps the most ubiquitous trait of DS is the 1-7 progression in a natural minor key. For example, four bars of D minor followed by four bars of C major. You'll hear it everywhere, Burzum and Mortiis in particular use this progression almost more often than not.
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Post by senpaijon on Aug 22, 2018 16:03:53 GMT -5
I've been a private music teacher for a looooong time ( too long to even tell lol ) and I taught people who wanted to learn theory and who vehemently didn't. I didn't think any different of the ones who didn't at all. I think theory is a tool and alot of people think that theory is a book of info that one needs to master in order to know theory. However, that's not right at all, on can learn enough to be dangerous or none at all, very rarely does one become an "expert' or wisened one of all theory because there isn't any real point to do so. It's like in MMA: there are plenty of fighters who aren't masters of of all styles and still win fights, there is an intangible aspect to knowing how to do something and a tangible aspect. However, if one wants to learn a more complex style of music (Jazz, etc...) or perform at a higher level ( ie, fighting in the top 5 in the UFC ) it really helps to know a little something. Moreover, Ive seen people who really "knew" some theory without knowing any theory at all through doing the thing. That's because theory really is just a compendium of observations of relationships between notes and intervals. Just my opinion though.
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Post by barrowmound on Aug 23, 2018 23:28:27 GMT -5
I've been a private music teacher for a looooong time ( too long to even tell lol ) and I taught people who wanted to learn theory and who vehemently didn't. I didn't think any different of the ones who didn't at all. I think theory is a tool and alot of people think that theory is a book of info that one needs to master in order to know theory. However, that's not right at all, on can learn enough to be dangerous or none at all, very rarely does one become an "expert' or wisened one of all theory because there isn't any real point to do so. It's like in MMA: there are plenty of fighters who aren't masters of of all styles and still win fights, there is an intangible aspect to knowing how to do something and a tangible aspect. However, if one wants to learn a more complex style of music (Jazz, etc...) or perform at a higher level ( ie, fighting in the top 5 in the UFC ) it really helps to know a little something. Moreover, Ive seen people who really "knew" some theory without knowing any theory at all through doing the thing. That's because theory really is just a compendium of observations of relationships between notes and intervals. Just my opinion though. All good points. Actually one of the most gifted songwriters I've known was a guitarist who knew nothing about theory whatsoever, completely self-taught. The riffs he would write without being shackled to our concepts of keys and modes were phenomenal, and all just from his own ear and experience. Unfortunately he doesn't pursue music at all any more.
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Post by Telaestheticist on Sept 23, 2019 3:14:35 GMT -5
For me, music theory has always been genuinely fun for me to explore. When I first discovered musical modes, scales, and chords, I was eager to experiment with them. Though I've definitely seen people use complex music theory as a form of purity testing in music communities, I've also seen plenty of musicians who insist that any music that isn't completely abstract is illegitimate. I've always preferred to find a healthy compromise between using music theory and raw improvisation. Much in the same way that a poet could write poetry by using a specific traditional form, a musician can use modes and scales to help inspire melodies and chord progressions. It's not always an easy balance, and some people prefer less structure. Speaking for myself, I find that I'm the most creative within a more rigid set structure, but I absolutely respect that some people are different. My older brother for instance can play just about anything by ear on the guitar, but he can't effectively read sheet music. I can read sheet music really well, and I'm great with music theory, but I can't play a stringed instrument to save my life. An interesting note is that keyboard instruments are naturally designed to adhere to music theory conventions, which is why all of the seven classical modes can be found using the white keys on the piano (C Ionian, D Dorian, E Phrygian, F Lydian, G Mixolydian, A Aeolian, and B Locrian). I've found that musicians with a string instrument background, outside of an orchestral setting, tend to avoid music theory, but there are always exceptions. As you might expect, music instruction, with either good or bad experiences, can shape our relationship to music. I had formal instruction in piano and played both trumpet and tuba in my early to late adolescence, so I had a lot of exposure to traditional music theory. My experience is very different than my older brother, who ended up being taught by a country music writer that lived next door to us. He learned a lot of important musical standards from 20th century music genres like Blues, Country, and Rock, and learned how to improvise more effectively. But he also regrets not being encouraged to look into music theory, since some of his favorite music to play is classical guitar. It's also entirely possible that some of my own issues with improvisation, as well as with playing fretted strings in general, might not be present if I had different childhood experiences. But ultimately, I'm grateful to have musical skills at all, despite some of my own creative flaws. I think that our unique experiences shape us as musicians. We should spend more time channeling those experiences into musical projects and less time worried that we're not doing enough. It's a blessing that we have the ability to create and share music as easily as we do - particularly with a genre as accessible as Dungeon Synth. That said, I always try to remind myself of those early days of writing music - the carefree joy of just messing around on the keys and seeing what kinds of interesting moods I can create. I think we can always improve the music we make, and there is nothing wrong with trying to learn more music theory. Having more knowledge can only help you as a musician.
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Post by Lord Gargoyle on Sept 28, 2019 21:43:44 GMT -5
I enjoy music theory. I know it's not totally needed, and many don't enjoy it, but I find it *fun*. What I use most are definitely modes and counterpoint. I got into modes through Scottish folk music, and discovered that playing from different points was very interesting feeling, and sounding, while Baroque music is one of my loves, so even without intention I often create almost baroque counterpoint harmonies, where the melody and countermelody become instead two simultaneous but different melodies. A good portion of my background is in jazz, where chord progressions and improvisation shape much of music. I don't usually follow standard progressions, but that experience has helped me immensely as I create much of my work by recording layers of improvisation.
If I had to lose all but one, I would probably try to retain modal music, but honestly, to me losing all that would suck the joy out of playing and hearing.
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Post by skirmisher on Oct 6, 2019 8:31:54 GMT -5
The thing I like the most about playing keyboards is that I have no idea what I'm doing. After all these years I haven't learned anything and I love it. I tend to get bored when I get the hang of an instrument. I want it to feel like magic. I do come across situations where I feel I could benefit from knowing more, especially when I get stuck. So that might be something I'll remedy somewhere along the road, we'll see. But knowing any kind of theory whatsoever is not mandatory. It will help, but you'll do fine without it unless you aim to do very complicated things.
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Post by hru on Nov 14, 2019 3:25:53 GMT -5
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Post by presterjack on Nov 14, 2019 15:26:08 GMT -5
I would say I know quite a lot about music theory. I mostly started playing music as an exercise to try and understand music theory and get better at appreciating music as a music fan. Despite this being the opposite of most of our experience (who play music without learning theory, or prior to doing so), I am in agreement with everyone here who is saying theory is not as important as playing. Theory can't tell you what to play, it only tells you something about what has been played. And it's possible, even necessary, to know the things that theory speaks of without knowing the language of the theory. I can listen to music, and I can sometimes identify commonly used chord progressions, or sounds like "picardy third" or "phrygian cadence" or "augmented sixth chord resolution" or "suspended chord resolution" or "deceptive cadence" or "tritone substitution". But if you listen to music, or play music, I could show you all of those things, and you would probably have already figured them out and understand them as well as I do. And knowing those kinds of ideas still doesn't give you half of what you need to learn just by listening to music and playing it. For me, it's more like a crutch that helps me with my own learning style, and with learning at an older age. That being said, music theory can be really awesome, and it's worth studying, if you're into that sort of thing. Even just by listening to music, and hearing something from a piece that sounds familiar, and saying "what does this remind me of? what other tune sounds like that and why?". If you're doing that, then you're doing music theory, and if you learn some formal music theory, you might be able to have more of those moments. If you are learning about chords and harmony, I always recommend this fun website, which has a search engine with the chords of many popular songs, whereby you can find which songs have the same chord progression: www.hooktheory.com/theorytab
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Post by Båvingr on Nov 16, 2019 6:42:36 GMT -5
I would say I know quite a lot about music theory. I mostly started playing music as an exercise to try and understand music theory and get better at appreciating music as a music fan. Despite this being the opposite of most of our experience (who play music without learning theory, or prior to doing so), I am in agreement with everyone here who is saying theory is not as important as playing. Theory can't tell you what to play, it only tells you something about what has been played. And it's possible, even necessary, to know the things that theory speaks of without knowing the language of the theory. I can listen to music, and I can sometimes identify commonly used chord progressions, or sounds like "picardy third" or "phrygian cadence" or "augmented sixth chord resolution" or "suspended chord resolution" or "deceptive cadence" or "tritone substitution". But if you listen to music, or play music, I could show you all of those things, and you would probably have already figured them out and understand them as well as I do. And knowing those kinds of ideas still doesn't give you half of what you need to learn just by listening to music and playing it. For me, it's more like a crutch that helps me with my own learning style, and with learning at an older age. That being said, music theory can be really awesome, and it's worth studying, if you're into that sort of thing. Even just by listening to music, and hearing something from a piece that sounds familiar, and saying "what does this remind me of? what other tune sounds like that and why?". If you're doing that, then you're doing music theory, and if you learn some formal music theory, you might be able to have more of those moments. If you are learning about chords and harmony, I always recommend this fun website, which has a search engine with the chords of many popular songs, whereby you can find which songs have the same chord progression: www.hooktheory.com/theorytabOk, I like the phrase "picardy third" I'm definitely going to try that for the ending of my next track!
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Post by stormcrow on Nov 16, 2019 8:56:49 GMT -5
I would say I know quite a lot about music theory. I mostly started playing music as an exercise to try and understand music theory and get better at appreciating music as a music fan. Despite this being the opposite of most of our experience (who play music without learning theory, or prior to doing so), I am in agreement with everyone here who is saying theory is not as important as playing. Theory can't tell you what to play, it only tells you something about what has been played. And it's possible, even necessary, to know the things that theory speaks of without knowing the language of the theory. I can listen to music, and I can sometimes identify commonly used chord progressions, or sounds like "picardy third" or "phrygian cadence" or "augmented sixth chord resolution" or "suspended chord resolution" or "deceptive cadence" or "tritone substitution". But if you listen to music, or play music, I could show you all of those things, and you would probably have already figured them out and understand them as well as I do. And knowing those kinds of ideas still doesn't give you half of what you need to learn just by listening to music and playing it. For me, it's more like a crutch that helps me with my own learning style, and with learning at an older age. That being said, music theory can be really awesome, and it's worth studying, if you're into that sort of thing. Even just by listening to music, and hearing something from a piece that sounds familiar, and saying "what does this remind me of? what other tune sounds like that and why?". If you're doing that, then you're doing music theory, and if you learn some formal music theory, you might be able to have more of those moments. If you are learning about chords and harmony, I always recommend this fun website, which has a search engine with the chords of many popular songs, whereby you can find which songs have the same chord progression: www.hooktheory.com/theorytabOk, I like the phrase "picardy third" I'm definitely going to try that for the ending of my next track! "La terza piccarda"! I absolutely love that cadence, it's very albumsatic and epic! I used it throughout all my discography as Sidereal Fortress... just listen to albums like "Ruins", "The Forgotten Tomb of Yshnak" and "Odissea"...
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Post by element0s on Dec 10, 2019 17:27:32 GMT -5
I'm a full-time piano + guitar teacher with a degree in Jazz and I started taking piano lessons when I was in single-digits. So music theory has been a part of my life for a long time.
For me, music theory is about putting a name to certain sounds so that you can remember them easier, and communicate them verbally or via text to someone else. That's it. When I was in college they talked a lot about which modes fit over which chord qualities to have the most "correct" notes and as a teenager it felt like I had to make sure that everything I played fit neatly into those boxes. It took me a long time to come to terms with the fact that you can't always express what you want to express by following a set of prescribed rules. In fact, those "rules" I was trying to follow weren't really rules at all--they are just descriptions of sounds.
It wasn't until I started transcribing more music by ear and learning and insane number of songs in different styles through playing in different bands and through my teaching that I began to mature in my writing and listening enough to take proper advantage of what I'd learned in school.
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Post by stormcrow on Dec 11, 2019 1:57:15 GMT -5
I'm a full-time piano + guitar teacher with a degree in Jazz and I started taking piano lessons when I was in single-digits. So music theory has been a part of my life for a long time. For me, music theory is about putting a name to certain sounds so that you can remember them easier, and communicate them verbals/textually to someone else. That's it. When I was in college they talked a lot about which modes fit over which chord qualities to have the most "correct" notes and as a teenager it felt like I had to make sure that everything I played fit neatly into those boxes. It took me a long time to come to terms with the fact that you can't always express what you want to express by following a set of prescribed rules. In fact, those "rules" I was trying to follow weren't really rules at all--they are just descriptions of sounds. It wasn't until I started transcribing more music by ear and learning and insane number of songs in different styles through playing in different bands through my teaching that I began to mature in my writing and listening enough to take proper advantage of what I'd learned in school. absolutely correct. Are you setting up a Dungeon Synth project, btw?
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Post by castlezagyx on Dec 13, 2019 7:51:53 GMT -5
It took me a long time to come to terms with the fact that you can't always express what you want to express by following a set of prescribed rules. In fact, those "rules" I was trying to follow weren't really rules at all--they are just descriptions of sounds. It wasn't until I started transcribing more music by ear and learning and insane number of songs in different styles through playing in different bands and through my teaching that I began to mature in my writing and listening enough to take proper advantage of what I'd learned in school. I agree, continued practice and transcription of songs by ear, along with careful listening, are the best ways to progress. But theory, that set of pre-established norms, helps you making the practice more coherent and productive. For me, practice leads you to theory, and theory returns you to practice. For Dungeon Synth, it can be very useful to understand concepts such as the formation of scales and triads, voice leading, harmonization of parts, the existence and purpose of the tritone, the resolution of cadences, the six-four chord, the chord of dominant seventh, medieval modes, the use of musical texture, basic counterpoint, basic modulation and circle of fifths, basic rythm, monophony vs. poyphony, and any concept prior to the XV Century that is an integral part of the tonal system (without prejudice to any concept or influence of any era!).
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Post by element0s on Dec 13, 2019 16:38:19 GMT -5
stormcrow: Yup, I've got my bandcamp page set up with a couple preview tracks. Full album comes out on Dec. 21st. Physical tapes coming early 2020, just confirmed a deal with a label yesterday. Already working on stuff for a follow-up. castlezagyx: Sure. I think what you're saying isn't terribly far away from how I feel. Understanding the terminology helps me understand and organize my creative thoughts. It can be a very complex and exciting world to learn about, too.
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Post by stormcrow on Dec 14, 2019 8:58:05 GMT -5
stormcrow: Yup, I've got my bandcamp page set up with a couple preview tracks. Full album comes out on Dec. 21st. Physical tapes coming early 2020, just confirmed a deal with a label yesterday. Already working on stuff for a follow-up. castlezagyx: Sure. I think what you're saying isn't terribly far away from how I feel. Understanding the terminology helps me understand and organize my creative thoughts. It can be a very complex and exciting world to learn about, too. Sounds good! I really enjoyed the two tracks preview. Such experienced and inspired stuff at the same time is not that usual in dungeon synth...
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