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Post by ranseur on Aug 12, 2018 2:49:27 GMT -5
I just found this thread, some interesting direct attacks: nwnprod.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=65308&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0It's funny to me that one of the criticisms I see most often is that DS "all sounds the same," and usually that's from black metal people. I mean, seriously? Dungeon synth is like objectively more varied album-to-album than black metal. Every black metal album is the standard rock assortment of guitar, bass, drums, and vocals, with relatively formulaic song structures. But the instrument assortment of DS is completely open to any classical or ancient instrument samples, as well as infinite possibilities of synthesized textures not found in real-world instruments, and the song structures of DS can go from absurdly repetitive to verging on classical fluidity, and everywhere in between. And of course the people who put forth that criticism cite artists like Old Tower and Thangorodrim as exceptions, who in my opinion are some of the few artists for whom that criticism does actually apply (for example: Old Tower-Stellary Wisdom, Mortiis-FΓΈdt Til Γ
Herske). Yeah that's the thread that prompted me to make the thread in the first place, I found the level of ignorance very high. haha yeah man. Literally the fourth word in this thread is the word gay, not exactly a meeting of the minds. But the thumbs down thing was funny. Honestly I'm surprised there hasn't been more talk like this but you know, keyboard warriors are complete cry babies. But yeah, next year when this isn't cool anymore haha, how many of us have already been at this for five or six years or longer?
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kktz
Cleric
Posts: 188
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Post by kktz on Aug 12, 2018 4:44:15 GMT -5
I feel the same for metalcore that is a lot more popular on that "true metal" forum. It is not criticism, just idiocity.
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Ropp
Merchant
Posts: 73
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Post by Ropp on Aug 12, 2018 7:13:00 GMT -5
I had a lot of fun reading that post. I wouldn't think pop-rock (example) listeners would get to listen to any DS, and Metal is so varied that metal followers should have a more open-minded approach, kind of "I like this sub-genre, I'm just not into this other one". So, it is surprising that anyone who is into such music as Black Metal is would spend it time just to throw shit on a mainly non-commercial genre wich they don't have an interest into. I see no threat on this. Any kind of new genre will have to break this kind of walls, and this one didn't look specially hard
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Alder
Magic User
Murky dungeon sounds: alderen.bandcamp.com
Posts: 228
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Post by Alder on Aug 12, 2018 13:01:44 GMT -5
Big brother/little brother
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Alder
Magic User
Murky dungeon sounds: alderen.bandcamp.com
Posts: 228
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Post by Alder on Aug 12, 2018 13:28:25 GMT -5
There are many different vectors to finding dungeon synth. I've noticed one of the newer ones is youtube mixes similar to "lo-fi hip-hop radio" type stuff; videos with titles like "4 Hours of Medieval Fantasy & Dungeon Synth Music" that people listen to as background/study music. I don't have anything against these videos, but I'm not sure they put forward the best face of the genre and can come off as a lot of same-sounding stuff from purposeful mixing choices.
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Post by ancientmeadow on Aug 13, 2018 7:07:19 GMT -5
Haha yeah, it's the same as when d beat people say all noise sounds the same and then you find out they've only heard the common merzbow type and know nothing about it beyond that. This thread is funny. The exceptions listed are among a very standard orthodox DS sound. That's like saying "all bm sounds the same, I like Satanic Warmaster". I'm interested in why everyone in that thread seems to think that DS will die off soon. It's been around for a long time, especially now that we've recognized it as a proper genre. I'm guessing it's a matter of "now people know it's a thing, so they'll hop on, enjoy what spotlight they can until the bandwagon is full and it all falls apart". That might be the case if artists and fans weren't so passionate about DS. The genre is full of genuine people. I'm absolutely loving this thumbs down guy, though: When people start talking about how "insert thing here" will die off soon, it typically just indicates the sentiment of that particular person. "I don't like X so it must be dying off and losing popularity." Pre-interweb, trends were probably way more likely to come and go, seemingly overnight, because of the time constraints on communication between large groups. Now, with social media platforms, what would have been an outrageously obscure thing struggling to survive the 90s is almost certain to persist and even thrive.
I'm sure there were no shortage of claims in the late 80s to the mid-90s when black metal made it on the map. "This all sounds the same.", "This won't last, it's too gimmicky.", blah blah blah.
Vive la dungeon musique .
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Post by jondexter on Aug 14, 2018 8:04:39 GMT -5
Probably the biggest attack against ds is that it is easy to make so anybody can do it.But the art of the magician is quite the opposite and the layman just doesn't get it AND lets face it never will. We are all here because this is what we love plain and simple - this is not a lucrative trade in the slightest. Success is not measured in popularity/units sold in this genre, at its basis it is very introverted and hermit-like. Most of of us could not care less about what people that don't like it think - we have 'seen the light' and damn those who don't - especially when they are taking the piss. The spoils are for us alone - our aggressors will fall short because they are wrong to criticise what they cannot comprehend, and can we really be bothered trying to explain it to them?
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Post by ancientmeadow on Aug 14, 2018 9:21:21 GMT -5
Probably the biggest attack against ds is that it is easy to make so anybody can do it.But the art of the magician is quite the opposite and the layman just doesn't get it AND lets face it never will. We are all here because this is what we love plain and simple - this is not a lucrative trade in the slightest. Success is not measured in popularity/units sold in this genre, at its basis it is very introverted and hermit-like. Most of of us could not care less about what people that don't like it think - we have 'seen the light' and damn those who don't - especially when they are taking the piss. The spoils are for us alone - our aggressors will fall short because they are wrong to criticise what they cannot comprehend, and can we really be bothered trying to explain it to them? Fuck yeah, well said.
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olofdigre
Knight
digre.bandcamp.com
Posts: 376
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Post by olofdigre on Aug 14, 2018 11:08:01 GMT -5
Everything that I do not listen to sounds the same. So I only like Dungeon Synth, Country Western, a few chiptunes and some good old Disco.
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Post by jondexter on Aug 14, 2018 17:07:18 GMT -5
Probably the biggest attack against ds is that it is easy to make so anybody can do it.But the art of the magician is quite the opposite and the layman just doesn't get it AND lets face it never will. We are all here because this is what we love plain and simple - this is not a lucrative trade in the slightest. Success is not measured in popularity/units sold in this genre, at its basis it is very introverted and hermit-like. Most of of us could not care less about what people that don't like it think - we have 'seen the light' and damn those who don't - especially when they are taking the piss. The spoils are for us alone - our aggressors will fall short because they are wrong to criticise what they cannot comprehend, and can we really be bothered trying to explain it to them? Fuck yeah, well said. Haha cheers broπ
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Aug 17, 2018 1:09:15 GMT -5
I don't understand "attacking" a genre of music, everything is subjective. Something you may love might sound the same and horrible to someone else. People are strange.
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Post by andrewwerdna on Aug 17, 2018 14:09:38 GMT -5
I don't understand "attacking" a genre of music, everything is subjective. Something you may love might sound the same and horrible to someone else. People are strange. Is everything really subjective? I used to say this but recently I've started thinking I don't actually believe it. And even if it is technically true (which I'm on the fence about), I would still rather reject the idea in practice because I think there is value in criticizing music, whether individual works or entire genres. If someone just listens to mainstream pop hits, and someone comes along and says "that music has no soul and is only about making money," that criticism, whether objectively "true" or not, might lead that person who only listens to mainstream pop hits to seek out other genres of music which are harder to find but more intellectually stimulating, spiritually fulfilling, and/or structurally/texturally/thematically innovative (at least in how most listeners experience those genres, not to say they're necessarily objective qualities). Let's assume there is a genre of music motivated purely by profit, and through large-scale deceptive advertising it becomes very popular, would it not be appropriate to criticize that genre for lacking those qualities or at least not pursuing them? Also I think attacks/criticism can be good when they're on point because it can create a dialogue where one might more clearly see what it is in the music that they really value, and it can also illuminate weaknesses that can potentially be overcome or avoided once recognized. And in the case of the thread that motivated this one, the attacks are so weak and ignorant that it's almost like an unintentional compliment. Like if the only criticisms that are put forth about a genre are objectively inaccurate then that just reinforces the value of the genre. It's bad for the attacker's reputation in that case, but good for the thing being attacked. Now I'm not saying it's good to go around being an asshole edgelord all the time, and am not saying that all attacks are beneficial, often they can be simultaneously harmful to the person doing the attacking and the thing being attacked, but I'm just saying it's not always bad or inappropriate imo, even sometimes in cases where the attacker is not constructive at all and is merely attempting to bolster their own ego.
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Post by andrewwerdna on Aug 17, 2018 14:21:03 GMT -5
As a matter of fact, I think it would be a healthy exercise to consider what might be some criticisms that actually are difficult to grapple with and how we might respond to them.
Here's one: The only reason people care about dungeon synth is because it's easy to make, which is why there are more fans that make it themselves than there are fans who just listen to it.
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Post by stormcrow on Aug 17, 2018 14:39:44 GMT -5
As a matter of fact, I think it would be a healthy exercise to consider what might be some criticisms that actually are difficult to grapple with and how we might respond to them. Here's one: The only reason people care about dungeon synth is because it's easy to make, which is why there are more fans that make it themselves than there are fans who just listen to it. Are you sure that DS is so easy to make? Maybe it is if you have a neverending imagination, creativity, musical sensibility and so on... Or maybe you're speaking about "technically easy"? That's the point: you can make technically hard DS as well, but in that case you're losing the essence of the genre itself. Is anyone of us really aiming to be the Dream Theater of dungeon synth? Think about this: many of us are neither pianists or keyboard players. We "come" from other instruments and play keys like amateurs...so it's like we're all the same amateur level, and that's good like all the cars racing with the same engine. That's probably the reason why DS sounds so "easy". Don't you think?
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Alder
Magic User
Murky dungeon sounds: alderen.bandcamp.com
Posts: 228
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Post by Alder on Aug 17, 2018 15:10:00 GMT -5
A lot of DS is very simple, but I think its a mistake to conflate that with "easy." Sort of like abstract expressionism or impressionism in painting - "my four-year-old could've done that!" - but...they didn't. It's much more about concept & atmosphere than technical mastery. There are definitely people who will argue that masterful playing of an instrument is what makes "good music," but those are usually the same fools who think anything electronic is invalid since it's "just pushing buttons."
Jamming on A-Dorian with a harpsichord VST does not good dungeon music make.
I think many of us are drawn into the genre by that ethereal, un-nameable je-ne-sais-quoi that separates the good from the bad, independent of any actual mastery of composition or performance (soul?). Just look at all the empty-feeling, totally boring projects that are "based off" or "heavily inspired" by pre-established dungeon musics....not that all "inspired" projects are dull, but a lot of them are.
As for "more fans that make it themselves than there are fans who just listen to it" - is that still true? Two years ago, I'd be pretty confident that was the landscape, but I get the impression there are now a lot more "passive" fans...I wonder if the balance has tipped?
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