olofdigre
Knight
digre.bandcamp.com
Posts: 376
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Post by olofdigre on Aug 17, 2018 16:23:50 GMT -5
As a matter of fact, I think it would be a healthy exercise to consider what might be some criticisms that actually are difficult to grapple with and how we might respond to them. Here's one: The only reason people care about dungeon synth is because it's easy to make, which is why there are more fans that make it themselves than there are fans who just listen to it. Are you sure that DS is so easy to make? Maybe it is if you have a neverending imagination, creativity, musical sensibility and so on... Or maybe you're speaking about "technically easy"? That's the point: you can make technically hard DS as well, but in that case you're losing the essence of the genre itself. Is anyone of us really aiming to be the Dream Theater of dungeon synth? Think about this: many of us are neither pianists or keyboard players. We "come" from other instruments and play keys like amateurs...so it's like we're all the same amateur level, and that's good like all the cars racing with the same engine. That's probably the reason why DS sounds so "easy". Don't you think? Mmmh yes. Some are very fluent composers like nahadoth and chaucerian myth and many more. Then there is those who play, in my mind, very complicated rifs on the keyboard like rävjäger. I imagine he plays his keyboard like he plays his guitar. I think most of "us" are better musicians than I am technical but we all have different methods doing this music. I rely mostly on my ability to mix and produce my tracks when playing with Fåntratt and projects like that and the composing is very simple and easy. It would be easy to "attack" my tracks as very primitive in the composing and my approach as very naive because they are but I think the problem these people have with dungeon synth is that it is now far from what it ones was: Black Metal artist wanting to make something atmospheric as a side project to the bm tapes. the bm connection is not lost but what we see is many artist very disconnected to the bm-scene.
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olofdigre
Knight
digre.bandcamp.com
Posts: 376
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Post by olofdigre on Aug 17, 2018 16:38:00 GMT -5
Jamming on A-Dorian with a harpsichord VST does not good dungeon music make. As for "more fans that make it themselves than there are fans who just listen to it" - is that still true? Two years ago, I'd be pretty confident that was the landscape, but I get the impression there are now a lot more "passive" fans...I wonder if the balance has tipped? Phuw! Lucky then that I play D-Dorian all the time. Yeah! I think it has tipped. I know listeners that has no plans of making their own music. Many of them.
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Alder
Magic User
Murky dungeon sounds: alderen.bandcamp.com
Posts: 228
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Post by Alder on Aug 17, 2018 17:56:57 GMT -5
Jamming on A-Dorian with a harpsichord VST does not good dungeon music make. Phuw! Lucky then that I play D-Dorian all the time. Haha - the "old-school" classic! Seriously, though - why does the Dorian mode get so much love in the dungeon world? Is it somehow associated with medieval music?
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olofdigre
Knight
digre.bandcamp.com
Posts: 376
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Post by olofdigre on Aug 17, 2018 18:21:42 GMT -5
Phuw! Lucky then that I play D-Dorian all the time. Haha - the "old-school" classic! Seriously, though - why does the Dorian mode get so much love in the dungeon world? Is it somehow associated with medieval music? Yes it is I think. Scarborough Fair and Greensleeves is often played in dorian mode and it sounds medieval right? I am not sure.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Aug 17, 2018 18:52:19 GMT -5
I don't understand "attacking" a genre of music, everything is subjective. Something you may love might sound the same and horrible to someone else. People are strange. Is everything really subjective? I used to say this but recently I've started thinking I don't actually believe it. And even if it is technically true (which I'm on the fence about), I would still rather reject the idea in practice because I think there is value in criticizing music, whether individual works or entire genres. If someone just listens to mainstream pop hits, and someone comes along and says "that music has no soul and is only about making money," that criticism, whether objectively "true" or not, might lead that person who only listens to mainstream pop hits to seek out other genres of music which are harder to find but more intellectually stimulating, spiritually fulfilling, and/or structurally/texturally/thematically innovative (at least in how most listeners experience those genres, not to say they're necessarily objective qualities). Let's assume there is a genre of music motivated purely by profit, and through large-scale deceptive advertising it becomes very popular, would it not be appropriate to criticize that genre for lacking those qualities or at least not pursuing them? Also I think attacks/criticism can be good when they're on point because it can create a dialogue where one might more clearly see what it is in the music that they really value, and it can also illuminate weaknesses that can potentially be overcome or avoided once recognized. And in the case of the thread that motivated this one, the attacks are so weak and ignorant that it's almost like an unintentional compliment. Like if the only criticisms that are put forth about a genre are objectively inaccurate then that just reinforces the value of the genre. It's bad for the attacker's reputation in that case, but good for the thing being attacked. Now I'm not saying it's good to go around being an asshole edgelord all the time, and am not saying that all attacks are beneficial, often they can be simultaneously harmful to the person doing the attacking and the thing being attacked, but I'm just saying it's not always bad or inappropriate imo, even sometimes in cases where the attacker is not constructive at all and is merely attempting to bolster their own ego. I don't mean its not good to criticise something in a way that you mentioned like in your example and agree with what you said for the most part, but the brainless "___ is shit! attacks are what I do not understand like what was posted on that NWN thread. I don't believe that serves any purpose whatsoever, maybe if he elaborated on his post but he didn't and it really didn't serve any purpose, create a discussion - tell us why it is shit and watered down. But who knows, maybe someone saw that thread and decided to look into what Dungeon Synth is and falls in love with it. I don't have a problem with someone listening to what they enjoy though, regardless if it is the mindless dribble that you hear a 17 year old girl sing that was actually written by a bunch of short fat old men in an overheated boardroom of a corporate office, the Insane Clown Posse, or Dungeon Synth. If you enjoy the noise that is hitting your ears then that is cool. If you are only listening to something and you are completely closed off to other genres or the deeper field of that genre, then they should become open to new music, because they are really missing out. But at the end of the day, I don't really care what people listen to lol.
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Post by crystallogic13 on Aug 18, 2018 1:25:56 GMT -5
As a matter of fact, I think it would be a healthy exercise to consider what might be some criticisms that actually are difficult to grapple with and how we might respond to them. Here's one: The only reason people care about dungeon synth is because it's easy to make, which is why there are more fans that make it themselves than there are fans who just listen to it. Stormcrow and Alder already covered it, +1000 on their posts.. I'd like to just give also another example of the many I guess that exist in the modern internet world, of communities where the creators are probably more than the fans: - Text Adventures/Interactive Fiction games , from 1995 when commercial games of the genre died, it lived on with annual comps mostly, producing many modern classics that are not "easy" to create.. And the genre still thrives.. And authors are probably here again, more than fans, producing excellent stuff.. The tools are there for everyone to create for free IF (Inform, Tads etc) but to create a classic you need A LOT of talents (great prose etc etc = creativity)
- Demoscene , by default is mostly targeted from creators to other creators.. Yes there are tools there too that help if you are into programming but even then it is art , needs an awful lot of artistic and programming skills and that doesn't reduce anything from its value.. I think if not already, in max 5 years time anyone will be able to create with minimum effort a whole damn orchestrated metal album with all the programs that are available, does that mean everyone will have the talent as said to create something good ? And finally, what about me and other people that are not musicians and not planning to be, why do we like then DS since we do not create ? Nobody can't really tell to someone WHY he likes something, it's just a matter of taste.. p.s. Now that I'm thinking of it, heavy noise may be another genre where creators>fans but since I don't like it at all and I'm not into it, so I'll leave it at that since I could be way wrong.. And it could be happening with a lot of other genres ..
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Post by stormcrow on Aug 18, 2018 11:33:26 GMT -5
Phuw! Lucky then that I play D-Dorian all the time. Haha - the "old-school" classic! Seriously, though - why does the Dorian mode get so much love in the dungeon world? Is it somehow associated with medieval music? Oh yes, a lot of medieval music is actually modal. Think of Greensleeves.
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Post by andrewwerdna on Aug 18, 2018 14:35:19 GMT -5
As a matter of fact, I think it would be a healthy exercise to consider what might be some criticisms that actually are difficult to grapple with and how we might respond to them. Here's one: The only reason people care about dungeon synth is because it's easy to make, which is why there are more fans that make it themselves than there are fans who just listen to it. Are you sure that DS is so easy to make? Maybe it is if you have a neverending imagination, creativity, musical sensibility and so on... Or maybe you're speaking about "technically easy"? That's the point: you can make technically hard DS as well, but in that case you're losing the essence of the genre itself. Is anyone of us really aiming to be the Dream Theater of dungeon synth? Think about this: many of us are neither pianists or keyboard players. We "come" from other instruments and play keys like amateurs...so it's like we're all the same amateur level, and that's good like all the cars racing with the same engine. That's probably the reason why DS sounds so "easy". Don't you think? I mean technically easy yeah, in the sense that the barrier to entry is really low. It doesn't even require purchasing an instrument or even a midi controller. One could use a free DAW and free VST and compose entirely with their typing keyboard. And structurally the rules are simple, one could record just a couple riffs and repeat them for an hour like A Song of a Long Forgotten Ghost. And as you said, there are no expectations for proficiency of performance or sophistication of music theory. An entire album could be made in less than an hour and still accurately call it "dungeon synth." Most genres require far more of a minimum effort before saying a track or album belongs to that genre. So one could easily make the case that it is more this low barrier to entry that draws people to dungeon synth rather than a genuine appreciation for the music. As for "more fans that make it themselves than there are fans who just listen to it" - is that still true? Two years ago, I'd be pretty confident that was the landscape, but I get the impression there are now a lot more "passive" fans...I wonder if the balance has tipped? Hmmm, yeah maybe it's just the people who produce it themselves are more visible and if the balance hasn't tipped it at least does seem to be shifting in that direction, however I think the ratio between the two will always be high for fans that are also producers relative to most other genres. I don't remember where I first saw this criticism put forth, but I've thought about it a lot since that time. Certainly there is much DS out there that is not easy to make, but I don't think it can be denied that the barrier to entry is lower than a lot of other genres. But my response to that is it's a good thing that the simplicity of it invites participation! Even if one makes an extremely low-effort work that nobody listens to, I think that participation totally enriches the thinking and experience of this type of music rather than being a passive listener. Not to say it's bad to be a passive listener, but I kind of like thinking about dungeon synth as more of an interactive genre. And perhaps it being so easy for people to join in and participate is what draws many people initially rather than a genuine appreciation for the music, but that means through working on it themselves they will likely begin to appreciate it, and if their first few works are lacking in effort or inspiration, they will then either give up and move on or keep at it and steadily improving until their work reaches a point where it is certainly not "easy to make." I think this might be what makes dungeon synth special and different from most other genres, by bringing to the listeners mind the thought "I could make that" it invites participation, not just through creation but also by that creation enriching the listening as well. Also the fact that there is no massive passive audience for this stuff, it also invites participation as far as responding to the artists' creations in some way. I think overall DS fans are far more engaged even with the listening and responding to the music than most other genres as well. So maybe dungeon synth is more like D&D than Lord of the Rings, and that's what makes it great.
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Alder
Magic User
Murky dungeon sounds: alderen.bandcamp.com
Posts: 228
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Post by Alder on Aug 19, 2018 16:08:59 GMT -5
And perhaps it being so easy for people to join in and participate is what draws many people initially rather than a genuine appreciation for the music, but that means through working on it themselves they will likely begin to appreciate it, and if their first few works are lacking in effort or inspiration, they will then either give up and move on or keep at it and steadily improving until their work reaches a point where it is certainly not "easy to make." I wonder if the low barrier to entry is part of what inspires so much vehement grandstanding & protective posturing about the trve nature of the genre. I've seen this in other small genre communities I've been involved with. Noise, in particular, often comes across as easy-to-join genres & people can get super protective & gate keeper-y because of that, seeing themselves as guardians of genre purity (see: HNW). Along the same comparison, there's nothing to help you appreciate Noise music than making it yourself & learning how complicated it can be, despite initial impressions of immediacy & ease. I think this might be what makes dungeon synth special and different from most other genres, by bringing to the listeners mind the thought "I could make that" it invites participation, not just through creation but also by that creation enriching the listening as well. So maybe dungeon synth is more like D&D than Lord of the Rings, and that's what makes it great. This is a really apt description - the genre does have that give-and-take, add-and-expand feeling of tabletop RPGs. I started in on dungeon music essentially as a vehicle for trying to teach myself better keyboard playing, my thinking being that the genre invited a whole swath of technical skill as "acceptable"...or maybe useful? Which is just like how I first started playing D&D to make friends in a new town, and now I regularly write homebrews & host games!
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Aug 19, 2018 18:04:43 GMT -5
I think Dungeon Synth is way more accessible than most other music genres to get into, which allows more people to jump in. You see it in other off-shoots of ambient also. The problem for new artists is that they will all go under the radar though. You make something, you post it, you get 100 plays in the first week and maybe nobody comments on it, you get one or two people who give you the time of the day to say a quick something about it, it makes it hard to grow as an artist and to take feedback to learn from what you are doing right and wrong, so I think this pushes a lot of people away from the genre also because when it comes to the community (/r/dungeonsynth especially, facebook groups etc) people would rather listen to Fief, Mortiis, Old Tower etc for the 500th time than listen to a new project in the genre, and I think that comes down to how accessible it is to get into it and the influx of work that comes through.
As someone who just got into making Dungeon Synth, I can safely say one of the things that made me want to try it for myself was how "easy" it is to start making it. You have DAW's and VST's, you have old school keyboards and synths you can pick up cheaply, you can be completely lo-fi with no experience producing or no experience with the instrument itself.
But as you start making it, you see how difficult it can be really be - especially if you are trying to make something that is decent that you hope people will want to listen to. Finding a concept you want to bring to life, a certain sound you are going for, a melody and the layers to make it all come together while keeping it sounding unique is actually not the easiest thing to do.
With experience this probably changes, but as someone who is just starting, I find it pretty difficult. I was pretty surprised while making it, I just released a demo and it was really eye opening that I could spend hours and hours of my time to bring out a 2 minute long track, or even spend all those hours and have nothing at the end of it all. I have made other forms of music in the past when I was younger, form hip hop beats to ambient music, but I find Dungeon Synth one of the harder ones to create.
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Post by thynelyghtillusory on Aug 20, 2018 17:20:43 GMT -5
Big brother/little brother I really enjoyed that remark also, haha!
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dmr
Peasant
Posts: 19
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Post by dmr on Sept 5, 2018 21:11:01 GMT -5
I mean technically easy yeah, in the sense that the barrier to entry is really low. It doesn't even require purchasing an instrument or even a midi controller. One could use a free DAW and free VST and compose entirely with their typing keyboard. Is it really as easy as that? I mean, you at least have to know how to play an instrument, right? Because if you don't, keep an eye out for my debut demo on Bandcamp next week.
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Post by andrewwerdna on Sept 5, 2018 23:15:25 GMT -5
I mean technically easy yeah, in the sense that the barrier to entry is really low. It doesn't even require purchasing an instrument or even a midi controller. One could use a free DAW and free VST and compose entirely with their typing keyboard. Is it really as easy as that? I mean, you at least have to know how to play an instrument, right? Because if you don't, keep an eye out for my debut demo on Bandcamp next week. It is that easy to make something that can be considered dungeon synth yes. As to whether anyone would find it worth listening to, including yourself, is a different story. But actually that might be the best way to start, just start making albums without any idea what you're doing, just don't release them unless you think others would find value in listening. But when does one "know" how to play an instrument? I think many might argue that formal training, live performance, and knowing how to read music would be required to meet that determination, all of which are uncommon even among the most prominent DS artists.
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dmr
Peasant
Posts: 19
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Post by dmr on Sept 7, 2018 20:10:01 GMT -5
Well, I was just kidding about that "next week" remark. But you've given me something to think about. I don't have time for a new hobby right now, but maybe someday...
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Post by toodarkpark on Oct 1, 2018 14:49:21 GMT -5
AgainDungeon Synth sucks live apparently, whole thread above, this is what I wrote: "Dungeon Synth sucks live, blah, blah, blah Rolling Eyes You're babies who need constant stimulation from external stimuli and nothing else will do. You guys are always on about atmosphere etc, what happened to that being important, you have the brains of a cat (sorry cats) there's a moving plastic mouse there it is, ooww there it is ..... "
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