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Post by Dakhma on Apr 20, 2017 15:51:30 GMT -5
The innocent, total-fantasy spirit of so much dungeon synth is always what draws me back. The first album I ever heard of the genre was the Forge's Fire EP by Lord Lovidicus, possibly his most lo-fi and video gamey release, and I fell in love from the first few notes. It sounds genuinely fantastical and whimsical while maintaining notes of melancholy, nostalgia, and wonder. The fact that so many disparate individuals from around the world can create entire worlds from such basic sources as sound samples and pawn-shop keyboards will never cease to enchant me. That basement-dwelling, D&D-obsessed, music-loving energy fills me every time I listen. It changes from artist to artist (Til Det Bergens Skyggene is notably more melancholic and dreamlike than others), but I always love being surrounded by the magic.
In terms of creating the music, the magic is still there. When a simple, catchy melody flows out of your fingers into the world and hooks you for hours... few things feel more energizing! Finding the perfect sound/tone for the fantasy you are creating is a beautiful thrill. I also believe everyone has their different ritual and method by which they create dungeon synth, and that lends to the individual magic.
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Post by andrewwerdna on Apr 20, 2017 18:40:57 GMT -5
One thing I love (which I worry is changing) is that, more than any other genre that I've heard, you can almost always trust it to be made in good faith. What I mean by this is that you don't have to question whether the artist believes in his vision, because quite frankly what other reason is one going to make dungeon synth? It won't get popular, it won't make money, and it certainly won't get you laid. In fact, there's a good chance you'll release an incredible work of art and it will never get a single response. So, that means almost every dungeon synth album you listen to is loved by one person at least: the artist. Because these albums are made primarily for the artist's own journey, there is no pandering corruption to be heard. So in short I'd say the purity of the music is what's most unique to me, it's sacred to me. The genuine nature is also very important to me, as well. (and also what got me to fall in love with older RPGs, which is partly how I "found" DS). Could you expand on your worries about this changing? I'm curious - is there anything in particular that makes you fear this? Something you've seen or heard out in the world? Right now a lot of people are complaining about outsiders joining in who don't really get it, but I'm really not concerned about that at all. Basically I'm just concerned about the popularity of the genre, the scene mentality, and the commercialism. I still see dungeon synth ideally as being an individual experience, but unfortunately I don't think many people get that experience anymore. Now people got popularity and money to motivate an album's creation, and those aren't listened to in isolation either, usually they're thoroughly discussed on various social media before one even gets a chance to listen. But I'm participating in all this as well to some extent, because it is fun, even if it does take away from what makes this music special. Basically I just like to think of the music and the "scene" as being separate entities, and so far I think most other people have been able to do the same.
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Post by andrewwerdna on Apr 20, 2017 22:57:10 GMT -5
To clarify about scene mentality a bit, I think the purpose of ds is to take the listener out of this world and away from the people who inhabit it. While all this social media stuff might be entertaining and useful for discovering new music, getting too caught up in the personalities of the artists and listeners can be distracting from this purpose of escape. I think that escape should occur on the individual level, not as a group. So I feel this recent trend of "calling out the posers" is a bit misguided, because it was never about belonging to a group.
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Post by thekeeper on Apr 21, 2017 7:43:43 GMT -5
To clarify about scene mentality a bit, I think the purpose of ds is to take the listener out of this world and away from the people who inhabit it. While all this social media stuff might be entertaining and useful for discovering new music, getting too caught up in the personalities of the artists and listeners can be distracting from this purpose of escape. I think that escape should occur on the individual level, not as a group. So I feel this recent trend of "calling out the posers" is a bit misguided, because it was never about belonging to a group. Andrew, this is something I thought about a lot when making Blackvalley. There's a special element to 'pre-scene' DS that's really almost metaphysical that's difficult to replicate now. Like Eugene said on FB (or I guess whoever from that comment screenshot), maybe right now everybody is making ~post-ds~ because it's really difficult to conjure the same feel of unearthed isolationist 90s tapes because the conditional recording and compositional qualities of them are most often key in the atmosphere and worlds they create. I think some new artists (Forgotten Kingdoms, Voldsom artists, Old Tower, others along these lines) get that feel, but how else do you capture what these old tapes can do without those isolation/'non-group' conditions? These artists have little contact with the scene at all. Even regarding the 'scene' at times in creation of DS is strange because it's 'alone music', at least to me. Not saying the scene is bad or having one is bad, it's just different. Even early BC days felt different from current day. Part of what I was trying to do with Blackvalley is to move past the post-90s modern concept of DS and work with pure source material, trying to evoke that lost and lone atmosphere without DS itself straight from fantasy-centric media but with the awareness of how difficult and maybe impossible that can be now, hence the constant looping to create like a sisyphean/contemplative component. That's a large aspect of it, the critique part. Quoting: "It seems to me that pressing three chords for half an hour won't work again, what worked for Mortiis now sounds strange." I don't think 'posers' matter for the concept or the life of DS at large, for one because it's a lone experience. 'Poser-calling' seems to me like a reaction to a perceived attack on one's own 'escape' method, to their alter-world, which I guess can be ontologically and psychologically sensitive(?).
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Tyrannus
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Post by Tyrannus on Apr 21, 2017 11:28:52 GMT -5
I can never really internalize criticism pertaining to being a poser because I know my creative process is pure fun and I don't give a shit if people don't like it. Making cool music for me and my friends feels like what DS should be about. This feels like the same conversation about if people can still make real black metal or prog or krautrock or real punk or real post-punk or whatever. It's all the same shit of a little group of outcasts feeling like their little club is being invaded. Obsession with subculture and counterculture basically is an admission of your inability to function in mainstream culture. The art they make is an escape for like-minded, poorly adjusted people. They deny the validity of comparable art which does not reinforce a comparable sense of social isolation. You'll note that acceptance and tolerance are uncool now, because of the jaded rejects who are spewing forth that ideology. If you love an art form you want to watch it grow. If you love the status your art gives you then don't want to watch it grow. It's that simple. Anyone who actually wants to see DS thrive should be praising innovation (regardless of whether it is always successful) because they should inherently oppose stagnation.
I feel like people who think a "scene" has some kind of "purity" that needs to be "protected" probably need to get some other outlets in their life. That attitude, to me, seems like a pitiful admission that this is all you have going for you, this is your escape and your kingdom, because you have nothing else. If you feel like normies are invading your safe space then you certainly don't have my sympathy. If you believe in a "standard of quality" then that is your personal fucking standard that you are arrogantly projecting onto the entirety of the scene. If you want DS to be your personal little meaningful sanctuary then you are blatantly denying the artististic intent and rights of hundreds of other artists. You can cry all you want about "muh purity" but I will call you out on being an emotionally stunted infant every time. Just saying.
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Post by thekeeper on Apr 21, 2017 16:55:24 GMT -5
I can never really internalize criticism pertaining to being a poser because I know my creative process is pure fun and I don't give a shit if people don't like it. Making cool music for me and my friends feels like what DS should be about. This feels like the same conversation about if people can still make real black metal or prog or krautrock or real punk or real post-punk or whatever. It's all the same shit of a little group of outcasts feeling like their little club is being invaded. Obsession with subculture and counterculture basically is an admission of your inability to function in mainstream culture. The art they make is an escape for like-minded, poorly adjusted people. They deny the validity of comparable art which does not reinforce a comparable sense of social isolation. You'll note that acceptance and tolerance are uncool now, because of the jaded rejects who are spewing forth that ideology. If you love an art form you want to watch it grow. If you love the status your art gives you then don't want to watch it grow. It's that simple. Anyone who actually wants to see DS thrive should be praising innovation (regardless of whether it is always successful) because they should inherently oppose stagnation. I feel like people who think a "scene" has some kind of "purity" that needs to be "protected" probably need to get some other outlets in their life. That attitude, to me, seems like a pitiful admission that this is all you have going for you, this is your escape and your kingdom, because you have nothing else. If you feel like normies are invading your safe space then you certainly don't have my sympathy. If you believe in a "standard of quality" then that is your personal fucking standard that you are arrogantly projecting onto the entirety of the scene. If you want DS to be your personal little meaningful sanctuary then you are blatantly denying the artististic intent and rights of hundreds of other artists. You can cry all you want about "muh purity" but I will call you out on being an emotionally stunted infant every time. Just saying. I don't feel that anything can stay 'pure', however that is even defined, if it's online in an essentially open-opportunity frontier. However, 'poser' as a term and an abstract pariah has always been around in pretty much every genre so its not necessarily internet-native at all. Elitism among elitists, maybe among some others as well, is generally treated as like a sociological quality control mechanism. Maybe sometimes that works, but I think more often it results in more fragmentation of the scene as a whole, at least over time (but maybe that would happen regardless). I think things get to a point where elitism only matters among elitists. Elitists want good quality stuff in the scene in which they include themselves, and I think this does also include some experimentation with 'their' genre to a degree, they just more often want ideological consistency and extreme(?) care in the production or crafting. Sometimes that comes from an honest place of care for a medium (even though it likely won't do much and might be misguided), and surely sometimes it's due to an over-attachment with a genre for psychological or egocentric reasons (what you're speaking of), I'm not one to identify them as either way. It's probably often a mix, but who can really say. From what I've gleaned over my years in music, elitists want QC so scenes don't draw a lot of 'quick-participation-hype-entry' artists which they view as sullying the nature or spirit of a genre or somehow overshadowing 'the good ones' (a genre getting too popular or mainstream, or whatever), protectionism of 'roots' as well, but I think this is entirely impossible on the internet. I think with DS, and with what Andrew is saying, is that it's kind of a strange occurrence given that DS is an experiential internal phenomenon. DS is in my opinion at its best when it's isolated from everything, which could be done without a problem in the 90s and can technically still happen today but the conditions are totally different (~* ~post-ds~*~). Everything is fair game now and anyone can become popular. There are popular artists who aren't good in my opinion, and unpopular artists who are great in my opinion (by both elite standards and the inverse). The only thing I would be worried about is what Andrew is talking about, using DS as a status opportunity somehow (maybe not a legitimate worry for me, I just think it's silly because it's dungeon synth, what do people expect to gain from something this obscure, and can you really get an honest listening experience from pandering?); that, and good artists potentially leaving DS just because influx is perceived as objectively negative. So I understand elitism in DS even though I don't agree a large portion of the time, I just think it's a bit fruitless, especially in these days. I like the scene and I've been into DS for longer than most around now, but I'd still do what I'm doing without it in the end.
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Post by nahadoth on Apr 22, 2017 7:58:07 GMT -5
Boy, this has been a helluva week in the internet DS world. All those "Make DS Great Again" memes from late last year now seem weirdly predictive.
Flippant, obvious statement aside, I will say this: after all that transpired this week I'm still unsure if people are more upset about experimental musical/thematic trends in DS, or just people producing it who aren't trying to live the barbarian warrior spirit in their day to day lives. I have plenty of escapist desires, but none of them have to do with wielding a sword in battle. But if it's about sound, the answer is simple for me - the artist HAS to believe in what they're doing. This ties back into what Erang was mentioning a while back, but sincerity is so important to me, since as thekeeper points out we can't recreate the conditions of old days in the internet era.
And also that the idea of quality control is super vague, and could be used as a weapon against any project you don't see as fulfilling your ideals.
Idk. In one of my other stations in life I play accordion, and accordionists on the internet scrap about this type of stuff all the time. Obviously it doesn't ever stop people from playing the instrument, but lots of people in that world flex their desire all the time to make newcomers feel unwanted because they don't want to play Lady of Spain.
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Tyrannus
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Post by Tyrannus on Apr 22, 2017 8:36:50 GMT -5
Yeah I fully agree about "quality control" not being a legitimate argument
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Post by lusitano on Apr 22, 2017 8:47:59 GMT -5
Doesn't time itself naturally assures quality control? The great albums will be remembered while everything else will eventually fade out.
Personally, I have no idea what to say about all this other than it's great to see Dungeon Synth evolve into other things. Having the idea that a genre should stay "true" to its roots is extremely short-sighted.
And let me clarify that by true to its roots, I mean staying stagnant in its own sound scope and never attempting anything other than what is established already.
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Post by dedran on Apr 22, 2017 11:19:14 GMT -5
I'll go back and read the rest of the thread to see if this has been touched on at all, but one of the things that stands out to me about this music is that it almost seems to bridge the gap between other kinds of music that I like. It fills a niche that was desperately in need of filling in modern times. I will say that as of late, I've been veering more into the ambient side of dungeon synth over the stuff with bombastic drums and epic soundtrack arrangements, just because it feels more genuine. The soundtrack stuff is nice, don't get me wrong, but the purity of the ambient stuff, especially because the melodies are so much more specific than those found in generic ambient music (and most ambient music doesn't tend to have melody to begin with), really lends to the whole concept of making soundscapes or visuals through music. And in a way, I appreciate the artists who try to shy away from more "modern" sounds (e.g. string orchestras, pianos), because we already have fantasy film soundtracks. The stuff that is totally unique and doesn't sound like any other kind of modern music is the really magical stuff to me. I'm thinking Vindkaldr, Uruk Hai, Til Det Bergens Skyggene, Gvasdnahr, Ancient Boreal Forest, Cernunnos Woods, and Ildjarn's ambient albums, here. These latter artists don't really sound like classical music, or film/game soundtracks, but they also don't sound particularly medieval, either. There's something more ancient about it -- music for a pre-Christian past, maybe, when people were part of the natural landscape around them, and genuinely believed that elves and trolls were out there somewhere, past the edges of the forests. It wasn't just a fun fantasy for them -- they really believed the world was made up of magical creatures. Sure, some game soundtracks evoke the same feelings, but it's the mixture of ancient/primitive sounds, ambient music, and melodic fantasy music that really does it for me. The ambient component adds a bit of nature to the music, merging the worlds of human and the wild into one. So in that sense, I'd say it's perfect music for an autumn hike through your favorite park on a rainy, dreary day, or for reading a fantasy novel about a time when the world was a lot quieter, less obsessed with rationalism, and more accepting of lore. So basically, it takes me to a past before writing had spread to Europe -- a time when no one was preserving musical pieces by writing down the melodies. We have medieval chant for Gothic cathedrals, and we have lute and recorder music for what came after. But as fun as it is to listen to actual medieval music or music from RPG's, dungeon synth, especially when it focuses on the arcane and otherworldly, feels oddly familiar, and allows us to imagine what a soundtrack for a past before paved roads, feudalism, and developed farming might have been like. Sure, a lot of dungeon synth focuses on castles and battles and later medieval tropes, and that's fine, too -- very much welcomed, in fact. But sometimes it goes a little more ancient, strips away the battle horns and the echoes of the middle ages, and goes even further into the weirdness of the forest, and I can't think of any other music that comes close to achieving that. Perhaps this could be considered a subgenre of dungeon synth -- forest synth.
I should note that the artwork for Burzum's Filosofem album, by Theodor Kittelsen, really set my imagination on fire as a teenager. That image is exactly what I'm talking about. And when you stare at it long enough while listening to Rundgang..., something clicks. After that, I found myself obsessed with finding similar music, then found Lord Wind/Mortiis/Wongraven, etc., then went on from there. I will leave this post with images of rainy Polish/Ukrainian countrysides, where the forest meets human settlement. There are many villages in eastern Europe where very old architecture has been preserved, and the nearby arboreal forests are awe-inspiring -- definitely places that I need to visit someday before I die. They exist in true isolation, modern society only indicated by a power line here and there, or a tiny, completely empty paved road.
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Post by andrewwerdna on Apr 25, 2017 1:31:03 GMT -5
Boy, this has been a helluva week in the internet DS world. All those "Make DS Great Again" memes from late last year now seem weirdly predictive. Now this really rings true, seems like the group is imploding.
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Post by Hyper Shaman on May 5, 2017 14:12:32 GMT -5
I have no good way to describe the feeling I get when I listen to dungeon synth. It's simply magical. Nothing is quite like it in the world of music.
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Post by Niair de Nasqda on May 15, 2017 15:12:48 GMT -5
I will leave this post with images of rainy Polish/Ukrainian countrysides, where the forest meets human settlement. There are many villages in eastern Europe where very old architecture has been preserved, and the nearby arboreal forests are awe-inspiring -- definitely places that I need to visit someday before I die. They exist in true isolation, modern society only indicated by a power line here and there, or a tiny, completely empty paved road. Wow, I really want to visit Poland now! *** I also think that all this "being true" and "quality control" attitude is bullshit, whatever genre we are talking about. Music is an individual experience, and you can make it to be popular, yes, but that is still the artist's decision, an individual decision, there is not someone putting a gun on the artist's head to get him to do popular music. For that same reason, I don't know what makes Dungeon Synth unique to me. I guess I like fantasy literature/films/whatever, but not only each DS project is unique, but each track is unique too, and there are some I like, and some others I don't.
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Post by setfiretostrawmen on May 18, 2017 13:02:27 GMT -5
I have no good way to describe the feeling I get when I listen to dungeon synth. It's simply magical. Nothing is quite like it in the world of music. For sure. Highly evocative. Could have something to do with race memory.
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Post by crystallogic13 on May 19, 2017 9:36:16 GMT -5
Tough one but.. :
I think every kind of music (an individual likes) is more suited or feels better expressing certain times or sentiments. For example when I want to make some distant journeys in the galaxies in future (fictional?) times maybe reading a similar book, I will listen to either early electronic (Jean Michel Jarre for example) or if i'm in a more fastened mood listen to Tech Trance, when I want in a similar vain to relax but with thoughts of old, of wilderness, of my home village and in general enjoy all similar culture (Fantasy Fiction , RPGs, etc) and feel that way Dungeon Synth is everything best. The fact that it is (almost mostly) without vocals makes it great for reading books without getting distracted even more so!!
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