Getting started in Dungeon Synth as a musician

[Båvingr]

Jan 30, 2018 11:03:00 GMT -5 nahadoth said:

Usually you would go with a chord progression based on the root key, so in the case of D Dorian you would probably do D minor. Go based on the notes in the mode, so since D dorian has an F natural (rather than F#) the minor chord is appropriate. D Dorian is nice for someone without a ton of keyboard skills because it uses all white keys.

The general layout for the modes of the major scale is:
I: Ionian (another name for major, use a major chord
ii: Dorian (use a minor chord)
iii: Phrygian (use a minor chord)
IV: Lydian (Use a major chord)
V: Mixolydian (Use a major chord)
vi: Aeolian (another name for natural minor
vii: Locrian (use a diminished chord.

Thanks! That makes a lot of sense. You are right about the white keys... Just got a MIDI keyboard so had a good old tinkle over a looped chord progression. Sounding good!

[corax133]

Hello everyone, I've only recently discovered the genre and am very pleasantly surprised there's this underground community centered around it! I've fell in love with DS instantly and I've decided to try and compose something myself. However having only composed some metal music before I've little to no experience in working with DAWs or creating music virtually at all.

Would FL studio serve as a sufficient DAW in order to produce DS? What are the plus sides of picking up something like Reaper for example over FL? I personally own FL and have started delving into it only a little bit.
Would there be any 'go to' VST's that you would recommend? Or should I just stick with vanilla stuff until I get the hang of the program itself before trying out DS-specific plugins?
Any website where I could brush up on the music theory? Until now the songs I've composed for an old metal project were mostly just based on 'gut feeling' though after messing around in FL a bit I've seen it's not that easy to just come up with a tune on the spot, especially without any hardware instruments.
If anyone could help out or just give some tips/pointers that would be great

[Båvingr]

I don't think the DAW you use matters at all, as long as it has standard features.
In terms of theory - look back in this thread, Chaucerian Myth recommended some websites.
Also, try to tie your theory learning in with what you already play (I'm assuming guitar???) you can probably work out why your "gut feeling" things sound good. As for composing melodies - get a cheap MIDI keyboard - 25 keys and you will be set. I've found that much better for working out melody ideas rather than programming notes... Set few chords, or even just 1 chord to loop and practice picking out melodies over the top.

[corax133]

Feb 3, 2018 6:10:58 GMT -5 Båvingr said:

I don't think the DAW you use matters at all, as long as it has standard features.
In terms of theory - look back in this thread, Chaucerian Myth recommended some websites.
Also, try to tie your theory learning in with what you already play (I'm assuming guitar???) you can probably work out why your "gut feeling" things sound good. As for composing melodies - get a cheap MIDI keyboard - 25 keys and you will be set. I've found that much better for working out melody ideas rather than programming notes... Set few chords, or even just 1 chord to loop and practice picking out melodies over the top.

I guess not, but I've seen Reaper being recommended as the 'go to' DAW for DS for some reason. I've actually played keyboard for 3-4 years, with minimal music theory knowledge, and seeing I just played in metal bands that did mostly covers and a bit of original stuff, I didn't need it too much. After spending a few days in FL, I'd say a midi keyboard would definitely be useful, as it's tedious to work out tunes on the laptop keyboard. I've downloaded some VST's though I found Sytrus and the like work pretty well and have some great presets. I'm struggling with programming drums the way I want them to sound though. Any tips on doing the drums for DS?

[nahadoth]

What issues in particular are you having with the drums? A lot of DS uses a traditional drum kit sound just treated with a ton of reverb, whereas some go for a more orchestral approach, or a kind of primal approach like with Summoning. Are you having trouble figuring out what to play, or how to tweak what you've got?

[Båvingr]

I have a question about MIDI and latency...
I read somewhere (not sure if it was here or on the Facebook group, I can't find it again) about a "low latency external soundcard" for recording via a MIDI controller.

Is this a thing?
If so, has anybody used this? It seems like it might be easier than upgrading the soundcard on one's PC...
But I wonder what other factors might affect latency - the PC's processing power, presumably?

Thanks!

[nahadoth]

I am by no means an expert on VSTs, but in my experience using them I don't have an issue plugging in the MIDI controller directly to the computer. It works fine for playback and recording. I run a Mac Mini that is nearly 8 years old and use the VSTs in Logic and Garageband pretty easily. I would imagine some external VSts may be more RAM heavy, though.

The biggest trouble I have is when trying to play back a complex track (with more than 16 tracks of audio) and record at the same time. Sometimes the computer will hiccup trying to crunch numbers and play back audio simultaneously. It's never a serious issue, just sometimes will interrupt a take, and usually right st the beginning so it doesn't cut me off.

Now, this is different than capturing a MIDI signal from an older keyboard, which I think does require an additional piece of hardware. I remember Grimrik attempting to provide some explanation of this process, and I think the goal of this is to externally control the sounds on an old keyboard so that you can tweak the performance after the fact.

[stormcrow]

Feb 5, 2018 10:29:58 GMT -5 Båvingr said:

I have a question about MIDI and latency...
I read somewhere (not sure if it was here or on the Facebook group, I can't find it again) about a "low latency external soundcard" for recording via a MIDI controller.

Is this a thing?
If so, has anybody used this? It seems like it might be easier than upgrading the soundcard on one's PC...
But I wonder what other factors might affect latency - the PC's processing power, presumably?

Thanks!

Of course you need an external audio interface to record in multitrack properly. Mostly it helps you when you record audio tracks (guitars, bass, vocals etc), but in MIDI recording and editing it's useful as well. An external soundcard (which works with low-latency drivers named ASIO) helps you not only recording in multitrack but running several plugins at the same time too, avoiding latency problems and some kind of software failure. 
You're lucky for the fact that nowadays sounboards are cheaper than , for example, 10 years ago. You can buy a good soundboard for less than 100€, I think it worths the money. 

Does anybody know if any USB 3.0 soundboards has been released? 

[Båvingr]

Thanks stormcrow. Right, I know the sort of thing you mean! Turns out I don't need one however... Bitwig 8-track (bundled with my keyboard) works with no latency issues (so far!) whereas my previous DAW (EnergyXT) was unbearable... I had flashbacks to when a bandmate asked me to record some bass on his elderly PC "but play it out of time so it sounds right on the recording" - gah!

[Tyrannus]

Am I the only one who finds vsts much harder to use than a more hardware-oriented route

[theinquisitor]

I'm currently heavy into the VST route and find myself spending endless hours tweaking sounds to make them fit the mix, rather than just playing music. Although it's great being able to tweak the sounds more precisely post recording and engage a wider variety of sounds quickly, often the ease of just playing a electric keyboard with preset sounds is what i'm missing.

[nahadoth]

Tyrannus I feel the same way. There are like 5 things I can do with VSTs that I can't do in music that is hardware only, and mostly they are production tricks.

theinquisitor - there is so much fussing you can do with VSTs, especially to make good blends of different types of sounds. Coming from that to playing an old Yamaha where my only option would have been changing the octave or the built in DSP/ reverb setting, and using th sustain pedal to get a weird hazy effect. It really makes you focus on getting a certain discipline in your playing so that you can get good takes. It can be frustrating, but I also genuinely love the simplicity of it.

[stormcrow]

I've never used hardware synth, and I'm trying to play the keyboard since last june or july.... though I have been into guitar for about 25 years. But, in the future, I would like to buy some old and cheap hardware and try to record directly into wav, bypassing all the MIDI tricks.
Don't get me wrong, MIDI sequencing and editig can be pretty useful and be actually a "shortcut", if you're not so able to play keyboards (as I am!).....but I guess it may kill most of the "human touch", hence the typical "amateur" atmosphere we can hear in DS classics from the mid 90s.

[Tyrannus]

Feb 11, 2018 23:39:21 GMT -5 nahadoth said:

Tyrannus I feel the same way. There are like 5 things I can do with VSTs that I can't do in music that is hardware only, and mostly they are production tricks.

theinquisitor - there is so much fussing you can do with VSTs, especially to make good blends of different types of sounds. Coming from that to playing an old Yamaha where my only option would have been changing the octave or the built in DSP/ reverb setting, and using th sustain pedal to get a weird hazy effect. It really makes you focus on getting a certain discipline in your playing so that you can get good takes. It can be frustrating, but I also genuinely love the simplicity of it.

I guess I don’t even dislike VSTs for their intricacy or anything, I guess it’s more a matter of work flow for me. It feels very different from hardware and I guess that’s why I like it less.

The notion of all this tinkering and fine-tuning is interesting to me though. I think maybe that’s a big thing that distinguishes a lot of more modern DS. I think more recently there’s this perception of there being a certain artistry when it comes to VST finesse. I hear lots of discussion about the tech side of things which I guess seems a bit weird to me, but I guess that’s a subjective matter. One thing I will say that I like about a lot of older DS is that it’s imperfect. I feel there’s a certain sense of ingenuity involved with creating atmosphere with a limited palate at your disposal. You do your best with the limited array of brass and string sounds your keyboard can make, as opposed to getting everything to sound just how you want it. I think it’s all pretty subjective though, and people work in different ways and perceive artistry in different ways. I just know for me that a lot of the creative process with VSTs just feels cumbersome

[andrewwerdna]

Hardware can lead to even more fine-tuning depending on what you get though, especially if you get something with a lot of knobs and sliders. But I agree that the workflow with hardware is much more intuitive, especially when you're tinkering with the sound itself, and I even like using hardware presets knowing that I'm experimenting with sounds that are unique and less accessible. These days I'm hesitant to use factory presets with VSTs because there's a good chance they've already been thoroughly covered by other DS artists. But also it's just so much fun building patches from scratch, even though they usually never sound as good as presets.

I got to say though, in my experience composition is so much easier and more intuitive when you stick to presets, especially if you have a limited selection of them. So I think if one is wanting to experiment with modifying the sounds or even building the patches from scratch, it might be a good idea to finish the composition first with a keyboard (not a synthesizer) or a GM soundfont or something, because I find it's quite cumbersome to go back and forth between synthesis and composition.