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Post by Texas Dungeon Synth on May 7, 2023 14:59:56 GMT -5
Agreed, great stories Talvi!
It's funny, I was absolutely obsessed with folk/viking metal right around this same time, 2002-2007 (my early teens, age 13-17 or so). I spent almost all of my time discovering and listening to all of the bands you're mentioning. Verisakeet was, and still is, my absolute favorite album from that entire genre, just a masterpiece. Very cool to hear some tales from the behind the scenes of the scene that soundtracked my youth, haha, and especially that you even had a hand in my favorite album of that era!
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Post by crystallogic13 on May 8, 2023 2:57:20 GMT -5
Ahhh always nice stuff posted here  talvisynth I learned of Gatekeeper through Eternal Champion, they had a split a little time back, gatekeeper.bandcamp.com/album/vigilance-retaliator-split , totally recommend it, I really need to get to Gatekeeper since after that split I forgot to check some of their other stuff!! Good reminder mate, gonna listen to the one you recommended first!! angbandslasthero , nice mate, I have only listened and of course thoroughly enjoyed Smoulder's "Time of Obscene Evil" (awesome cover art btw, first thing that caught my eye but thankfully music was up to the task ).. So thanx for posting they had a new release, already I'm starting to gathering stuff it seems to check out!! Currently at work and going for some classic stuff, Helloween's first release, which is a little raw but A GEM usually not very much mentioned, while lyrics have serious thematic the music itself is of course GREAT early Helloween, helping you to feel better and lifting your spirit Great stuff, great memories with this album, as with all of their releases up to and including Keeper II...
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Post by Texas Dungeon Synth on May 8, 2023 14:32:34 GMT -5
It's been a lot of Eternal Champion and Helloween in my rotation the past couple weeks as well. Much love for my Texan brothers in EC. Helloween is also very nostalgic for me as well, the band that bridged the gap from listening to only thrash when I was very young to exploring power and folk/viking metal. I found this compilation at a used CD store when I was 12 or so, which had quite hilarious artwork that really does not represent the music in any way lol. This was just before I had the capability to download music, so I only knew Helloween by name and had never heard them before, so it was a blind purchase (how things have changed). But man, hearing I Want Out at the top of that CD for the first time, I was immediately hooked. Classic band. |
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Post by talvisynth on May 8, 2023 16:24:32 GMT -5
Agreed, great stories Talvi! It's funny, I was absolutely obsessed with folk/viking metal right around this same time, 2002-2007 (my early teens, age 13-17 or so). I spent almost all of my time discovering and listening to all of the bands you're mentioning. Verisakeet was, and still is, my absolute favorite album from that entire genre, just a masterpiece. Very cool to hear some tales from the behind the scenes of the scene that soundtracked my youth, haha, and especially that you even had a hand in my favorite album of that era! One story just came to my mind from my guest session on Verisäkeet: We had some minor difficulties at first to get my kantele sound right, as it turned out the songs prepared for the album were played from different key that what the tuning on my instrument was. The tuning/key on kantele is generally defined by the size and design of the instrument, and the usual rule of thumb is to have a ~1,5 key leeway both up and down from the most optimal one for any individual instrument. Too much down and the strings start sounding lazy and "dirty" before completely losing the sound, too much up and the strings snap broken. Also, there are always as many tones as there are strings; f.ex. the kantele I'm having nowadays has 15 strings = 15 tones, thus it's definitely not from the most versatile end of the spectrum of instruments. So, what we then had to do was to alter the pitch of the song up a notch to match the tuning of my kantele, record the sections we had in mind, and then pitch it all back down to the original scale. As a result, my kantele sounded a lot lower and "darker" on the album compared to what it actually did in reality. angbandslasthero & crystallogic13 : I've now been listening to From Western Shores over and over again for some days now and I must say this one gets better and better on each round. I really have to check out all other releases by Gatekeeper now too! |
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tracher999
Peasant
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Post by tracher999 on May 27, 2023 8:21:52 GMT -5
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Post by Texas Dungeon Synth on May 29, 2023 1:51:31 GMT -5
Agreed, great stories Talvi! It's funny, I was absolutely obsessed with folk/viking metal right around this same time, 2002-2007 (my early teens, age 13-17 or so). I spent almost all of my time discovering and listening to all of the bands you're mentioning. Verisakeet was, and still is, my absolute favorite album from that entire genre, just a masterpiece. Very cool to hear some tales from the behind the scenes of the scene that soundtracked my youth, haha, and especially that you even had a hand in my favorite album of that era! One story just came to my mind from my guest session on Verisäkeet: We had some minor difficulties at first to get my kantele sound right, as it turned out the songs prepared for the album were played from different key that what the tuning on my instrument was. The tuning/key on kantele is generally defined by the size and design of the instrument, and the usual rule of thumb is to have a ~1,5 key leeway both up and down from the most optimal one for any individual instrument. Too much down and the strings start sounding lazy and "dirty" before completely losing the sound, too much up and the strings snap broken. Also, there are always as many tones as there are strings; f.ex. the kantele I'm having nowadays has 15 strings = 15 tones, thus it's definitely not from the most versatile end of the spectrum of instruments. So, what we then had to do was to alter the pitch of the song up a notch to match the tuning of my kantele, record the sections we had in mind, and then pitch it all back down to the original scale. As a result, my kantele sounded a lot lower and "darker" on the album compared to what it actually did in reality. angbandslasthero & crystallogic13 : I've now been listening to From Western Shores over and over again for some days now and I must say this one gets better and better on each round. I really have to check out all other releases by Gatekeeper now too!  that's interesting, a lot of effort sometimes goes into making sounds darker, often in much more convoluted ways than what you guys did out of necessity -- I feel like the Dungeon Synth equivalent would be turning the frequency down on a low pass filter on an M1's harp sound, haha Is the limited key range something that is often an obstacle when playing with other musicians? Otherwise you would need to always have multiple instruments on you everywhere you went, like a harmonica player, but it would probably be a lot more difficult to do that with kanteles. I assume harp players must have the same issue. Is it an instrument that is really meant to be played solo more often, or is it just that metal is outside the realm of what the instrument would typically be involved with? |
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Post by talvisynth on May 29, 2023 9:54:57 GMT -5
Is the limited key range something that is often an obstacle when playing with other musicians? Otherwise you would need to always have multiple instruments on you everywhere you went, like a harmonica player, but it would probably be a lot more difficult to do that with kanteles. I assume harp players must have the same issue. Is it an instrument that is really meant to be played solo more often, or is it just that metal is outside the realm of what the instrument would typically be involved with? Traditionally, the kantele has namely been a solo instrument, either played alone or as an accompaniment to singing performed by the players themselves. Although being the Finnish national instrument, in modern times it's been more or less an oddity/obscurity outside of actual folk music circles. I once had this big dream of making kantele the dominant element in one of my old projects, but this attempt of "kantele metal" or "metallic kantele music" kinda died out due to the end result being too harsh and metal for folk music people and too soft and folk for metalheads of that time (years '02-'07 or so). Furthermore I was never happy with the abysmal sound quality I ended up having with the cheap home equipment of the early 2000's. Over the years I drifted in a crisis about the whole thing, and I had to take an indeterminate break with all kinds of folk music, my own kantele playing included. I needed some distance and fresh air and went all in with other types of music (doom metal, stoner rock, old blues, 80's AOR, various genres of electronic stuff, even some a cappella choir singing of the renaissance era etc.) to shake off my old ways of thinking music which had become very jammed and narrow along time. I have to admit I miss playing kantele, but as that part of my playing history has had several sad turns and a deal of misfortune, it's been difficult to grasp on the matter anew ever since. I've always loved playing the instrument though: how I can just close my eyes, feel the strings under my finger tips, and along pure improvisation, forget about this world and enter unknown melodic dimensions. And after some 1 hour or so playing in a trance like state and having wandered somewhere else, I can then return to this reality refreshed and rested. It's almost like a modern shamanic trip, and a very therapeutic instrument in its own way. Perhaps I could try and play some random impro jams and put them in YouTube; a soft restart with the kantele after so many years of hiatus. I don't remember exactly how we did with f.ex. Ensiferum, but I guess my kantele did fit to the song parts without any extra hassle. It was rather acoustic based stuff so I think we took the base key from my instrument and then added up the more versatile ones to that. This is what I've done on my own kantele material back in the past as well. But yeah I'd say from the way kantele generally functions, it can be a lot more challenging to fit in compared to many other instruments out there. At least this goes for the non-mechanical and/or non-augmented ones. Nowadays there are also all kinds of extra switches and clutches that can be attached to the kantele and which then makes it easier and quicker to f.ex. change the tuning between minor and major on the go with a flick. Then there are these mechanical "concert kanteles" with all the way up to 40 strings; add all kinds of gizmos and those instruments can be used widely in pretty much any music genre. Personally I prefer the smaller, non-mechanical kanteles with maximum of 15 strings; it's all about the sound, touch and feel of a more minimalistic "artefact of ancient tones".  Here's a pic of my kantele (custom made for me by my good long-time friend A.T. of Nest) for those who might be interested in what's all this about:  PS. Sorry for the slight off-topic! |
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Post by Texas Dungeon Synth on May 30, 2023 17:06:44 GMT -5
Ah yes, now that you mention it I can remember reading your good friend A.T.'s writing about the kantele being a solo instrument in the description for his Mietteitä album. It's a beautiful instrument. Thank you for sharing your stories!
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Post by angbandslasthero on Jun 5, 2023 14:05:14 GMT -5
talvisynth :"could try and play some random impro jams and put them in YouTube; a soft restart with the kantele after so many years of hiatus." I think that would be a beautiful idea, would be nice to hear some improve music on your kantele! I always love hearing my husband play cello without intentionally playing anything besides what he creates on spot. I feel like there is something very organic about making music that way as it just exists within a moment in time.｡.:*☆ As for metal, I have found myself listening to Candlemass' Nightfall on repeat!! I don't know what has prompted this, but it is such an enjoyable album and it might be my favorite from them. There is just something about Messiah's vocals that just draws your into the music. I think he really helped define the band after their first release--which of course is a genre-forming masterpiece itself. Have also been listening to Аркона(Arkona)-Khram album. I first heard it a few years ago when it was released, but didn't really give it the time it deserved until now. Definitely heavier than some of their previous albums, but I think they went in the right direction
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Post by talvisynth on Jun 6, 2023 2:24:22 GMT -5
talvisynth :"could try and play some random impro jams and put them in YouTube; a soft restart with the kantele after so many years of hiatus." I think that would be a beautiful idea, would be nice to hear some improve music on your kantele! I always love hearing my husband play cello without intentionally playing anything besides what he creates on spot. I feel like there is something very organic about making music that way as it just exists within a moment in time.｡.:*☆ From time to time I've been thinking I should renew the whole concept of my old kantele project and take it all into just acoustic and impro-based jamming, as that'd come most naturally from within. Let's see what will happen. Aah, Candlemass; one of the most important bands for me *). Epicus... has always been the nr. 1 album for me personally, but ofc Nightfall, Ancient Dreams and Tales of Creation come extremely strong after the debut.  For some reason, I've always had a bit mixed feelings about Messiah's vocals; ofc, his over-the-top theatrical approach suits the concept of epic doom more than anything else, but whereas Johan Längquist managed to keep his stuff on the ground, so to speak (and personally, his voice - together with Robert Lowe **) of Solitude Aeturnus - has always been The Ultimate Voice of Doom for me), Messiah shoots through the roof to an astral vibrato plane of his own. Nevertheless, the first 4 albums are undisputed classics and genre-defining pieces of art, all great stuff indeed! *) My personal controversy here for their first albums being so absolutely magnificient to define the band up high for me, yet their later albums generally been an odd play of hit & miss: Dactylis Glomerata was perhaps a bit stale, From the 13th Sun was better yet very different for a Candlemass album (the most "blacksabbathian" of them all IMO), the self-titled release from '05 had Messiah back in vox and the album took the route back to the good ol' times (actually a very good album!), only to have Lowe on the mic for the next 3 albums (mentioned below) on which the biggest issue for me was how the songs felt like they were kinda meant to be sung by someone else entirely; Lowe's voice - which I've always admired so much - didn't quite "fit in" here and at times it even sounded like he had to push himself to the very limits, which in my opinion resulted in a bit forced and "off" outcome in the particular Candlemass context. I was then hyped to the max when hearing Längquist would make a comeback, and after all these decades his voice turned out still great on The Door to Doom and Sweet Evil Sun, but what then was a major disappointment were the actual songs; I really and truly wanted to like these latest 2 albums, but the material itself just didn't work for me at all regardless of how much I tried getting into those.  Well, luckily the classics are still there, showing how doom is meant to be done and stand out as essential milestones of the genre! **) Ofc, Lowe was also on 3 Candlemass albums ( King of the Grey Islands, Death Magic Doom and Psalms for the Dead), but for me it was always kinda weird hearing him in this band, as I was so heavily used to his voice in SA. A special mention for their '92 album Chapter VI. Thomas Vikström (f.ex. Therion, Stormwind and many others) in vocals, and the songs are just incredibly catchy! Personally, I feel this is the best Candlemass album after the "classic 4": EDIT: I also recommend checking out Memento Mori, Messiah in vocals there too (with the exception of La danse macabre album with Kristian Andrén [f.ex. in Tad Morose for a couple of years in the 90's]); the material is more progressive and even avantgardish at times, but still leaning towards the epic section of doom: EDIT_2: Oh, one more; hopefully I'm not ruining the song for anyone here, but in the first verse of "Bearer of Pain" on the album Ancient Dreams there's a line "Born of Apollon divine is the heritage" ---> I once misheard "heritage" as "hairy tits" while driving a car, almost drove off the street for laughing in tears, unable to unhear it ever since, sorry in advance if someone else can't now either! |
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Post by Texas Dungeon Synth on Jun 6, 2023 10:57:25 GMT -5
I have to agree with Talvi and take the less popular choice of Johan over Messiah -- Johan on Epicus Doomicus Metallicus is probably my favorite doom metal vocal performance. Obviously Messiah is terrific too, which speaks to the embarrassment of riches in the Candlemass catalog (although the Flodkvist material is pretty forgettable).
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Post by angbandslasthero on Jun 7, 2023 14:41:25 GMT -5
Haha I understand personal preference I might prefer Messiah but if Johan was not great vocalist I'm sure Epicus wouldn't havent been so...epicus!!! talvisynth thanks for sharing, you are definitely more versed in Candlemass than myself! I'll have to check out their discography. I will say Sweet Evil Sun isn't bad, though it would take me more listens to probably get into it? It just lacks something especially when you compare it to their earlier works!! As for misheard lyrics, they can really ruin a song XD Non-metal related, there is a song with a repetitive lyric "I crack the codes" and I misheard it once at "I crap the codes"  Song was forever ruined!! Metal currently listening to: Songs Of Moors And Misty Fields-Empyrium
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Post by talvisynth on Jun 8, 2023 3:15:47 GMT -5
Haha I understand personal preference I might prefer Messiah but if Johan was not great vocalist I'm sure Epicus wouldn't havent been so...epicus!!! talvisynth thanks for sharing, you are definitely more versed in Candlemass than myself! I'll have to check out their discography. I will say Sweet Evil Sun isn't bad, though it would take me more listens to probably get into it? It just lacks something especially when you compare it to their earlier works!!
Yeh, I think Messiah has always divided opinions quite strongly. I know many who like his performance like crazy, then those who can't stand it one bit, then there are people like me who have steered away from his stuff in the past, but along time have learned to tolerate it more and more and all the way up to a point where it's not really an issue anymore. I'm in understanding that Sweet Evil Sun has generally received a lot of praise, and I admit it's not bad in itself at all: quality modern doom made by an old legendary band, very heavy sound and crushing atmosphere across the board. But for an old fan like me, I just prefer the old albums over the newer ones. But I guess this is very common for most of us; regardless of band, it's always or at least most often the old stuff over the very latest ones anyway *). *) And just as I mentioned that, I remembered an exception for this for my part. Katatonia is one of those bands whose newer material (or more specifically the mid-era) hits me more than the older. Ofc, some 20 years ago I really digged the early death-related albums, but later on I've found myself liking Discouraged Ones the most. However, this is an oddball band for me anyway, as I don't tend to find many of their (later) albums particularly strong as a whole; for me there's always those 1-3 individual good songs per album while the rest sadly tend to fall to the filler bin. I haven't checked out the very latest release of theirs yet, only heard some separate songs live when they were playing in Finland earlier this year. Couldn't really form any proper opinions then, as the mixing at the gig place was just horrible; couldn't make much of the newest songs and even the ones I liked were pretty much ruined with completely abysmal sound quality. Furthermore, they didn't play any material older than The Great Cold Distance, which was also a minor let-down; at least something from the 90's would have been cool.  Texas Dungeon Synth I have to admit I tend to even forget the Flodkvist era albums exist; "oh, they had these releases too", and "oh, I didn't remember I actually had these CDs as well". But those albums I particularly like have made so remarkable impact on me that I just couldn't be without the iconic skull & cross on my skin as well.  |
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Post by Texas Dungeon Synth on Jun 8, 2023 9:55:17 GMT -5
See I'm not a big fan of later Katatonia (it's a bit funny to refer to it as 'later Katatonia' considering it now encompasses about 90% of their discography and 25 of their 30 years as a band haha) nearly as much as their oldest material -- but I'm a little different than most in that I prefer Dance of December Souls over Brave Murder Day. But it's hard for any album to compare to December Souls for me, as it is and has been among my top handful of favorite albums for nearly half of my life now. There's something about the atmosphere of that album, the romantic melodies and the guitar tone, very magical for me. And Renkse's harsh vocals are just perfect, full of anguish; it's a shame he was never able to perform vocals like those again -- Akerfeldt is a fantastic musician but his standard death growls just don't do it for me like Renkse's tortured cries, and that's a big reason BMD doesn't match up for me.
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Post by crystallogic13 on Jun 9, 2023 0:58:03 GMT -5
Nothing better than going through a metal discussion in early morning listening to DS First things first I had the exact same discussion real life with a cousin about Candlemass singers and he as a dedicated Candlemass fan was of the opinion that each one had songs structured for him, although both kinda prefer Messiah's voice!! angbandslasthero great taste, I love very much first era Empyrium but the later also I think shaped a lot for both folk AND Dungeon Synth with their "Where at Night the Wood Grouse Play" which is beyond words and beloved personally for me since it reminds me listening to it back then in the countryside and at my village.. Huge atmospheres so evoking but I think my praise won't matter since MOST of us here I think are Empyrium fans ... as well as Katatonia ones although I'll be honest that I don't follow Katatonia after the 2000s (around Last Fair Deal afterwards... just not my cup of tea) and my favorites are both Discouraged Ones and Brave Murder Day, with their differences they completely complement each other, great memories from both of them, great music and I ALWAYS and very regularly come back to them both to get my doze... <3 |
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that's interesting, a lot of effort sometimes goes into making sounds darker, often in much more convoluted ways than what you guys did out of necessity -- I feel like the Dungeon Synth equivalent would be turning the frequency down on a low pass filter on an M1's harp sound, haha
For some reason, I've always had a bit mixed feelings about Messiah's vocals; ofc, his over-the-top theatrical approach suits the concept of epic doom more than anything else, but whereas Johan Längquist managed to keep his stuff on the ground, so to speak (and personally, his voice - together with Robert Lowe**) of Solitude Aeturnus - has always been The Ultimate Voice of Doom for me), Messiah shoots through the roof to an astral vibrato plane of his own. 
Well, luckily the classics are still there, showing how doom is meant to be done and stand out as essential milestones of the genre! 
Song was forever ruined!! 
