Dungeon...step? (Update: I did it.)

[magicwillow]

Hello again, everyone. I've been thinking about this for years, but here's a post that will put my thoughts into order and maybe prompt some discussion and reccomendations for what I'm talking about. 

I wrote this before I tried it out for myself: here's the finished songs (free) if that's all you care about: bxkrug.bandcamp.com/album/the-monstrosity-marches-dungeonstep-demos

I am a dungeon synth producer and have been making DS and fantasy synth for about 7 years, with really getting real about it in the last few months. But I am also a Dubstep producer. I've been making dubstep for about 4 years now, and I'm actually much better at making dubstep than DS. That said all my best dubstep is not out yet as my two albums ive been working on for the last two years are yet to be released, but I can link to what I've released so far.  Nevertheless I've been thinking for a while about creating DungeonStep. My dubstep has always been Dungeon Synth influenced (see these two examples: 1 and 2), but I want to push past a superficial use of dungeon synth style synths and really dig into creating a genre out of the idiosyncracies of these two genres. 

Part 1 - Background of Dungeon Synth Genres and Their Creation

Dungeon synth genres seem to emerge very fluidly, usually in response to 1 really evocative project. The creation of the current notion of fantasy synth where the distorted tones of other dungeon synth was largely stripped away and the pleasant timbre's of real sounding instruments was on full display, or just vibrant synthesizer patches that definitely werent around in early fantasy music, were influenced by hugely successful albums like Fief I-V and Dim's Compendium I. The distorted and free-flowing comforting tones of Grandma's Cottage gave way, as far as I could tell, to the avelanche of fantastic work that is now the Comfy Synth scene. Now, while I could be wrong about which albums caused the creations of each genre the truth is that there was always something of a collective mental creative stream in every scene and genre that is influenced by what comes out of that genre, as well as what comes out of other genres. Rocks get thrown into this stream, and if that rock is big enough it can split the stream in two creating a new genre altogether. That said, even an artist like Grandmas Cottage, can't create a whole new genre on their own. There has to be a stream there already that is almost waiting for the album or idea to come along and spark that creativity. The history of Dungeon Synth as a genre bears some resemblance to the history of dubstep, even if they are very different genres. Dubstep emerged in the early 2000s, inspired by Garage, House and Industrial music. It had an ambient, reverberated, deep and atmospheric quality, that often included distortion and low heavy basslines. But as time went on, Dubstep changed. It grew into a thriving club scene, especially in London, and eventually those atmospheric, groovy, ambient tones, gave way to distorted, marketable, loud and head-bang-ready tunes that destroy speakers and necks. The process whereby this happened is a long one. But it does resemble somewhat some of the parts of dungeon synth where basically everything that originally made it dungeon synth has been completely removed, gone is the distortion, the ambience, the old-school sample-based keyboard sounds, the black-metal undertones, and replaced is a glitzy, modern fantasy-synth that barely resembles it. The differences are obvious, Dungeon Synth still has a sizeable old-school scene that makes the original vision of dungeon synth very well and continually. Very cool. Whereas Dubstep's oldschool scene is much smaller than it's newschool scene, which has its smaller producers collabing with Marshmallow. Also this isn't to poohoo Old-school or Newschool Dubstep or Dungeon Synth, I love all of the above.

Part 2 - The Similarities Between Dungeon Synth and Dubstep

There are some noted similarities between Dubstep and Dungeon Synth. I've already noted a few but here's some more unique ones, with examples. 

Both were originally darker and more ambient (Dubstep: Example, Dungeon Synth: Example) but now have newer subgenres that are more melodic, clean or modern (Dubstep: Example, Dungeon Synth: Example)

Both have darker, more ambient subgenres (Dubstep: Example, Dungeon Synth: Example), or more noise oriented Subgenres (Dubstep: Example,  Dungeon Synth: Example)

Both have more epic, heroic subgenres (Dubstep: Example, Dungeon Synth: Example),

Both have the ability to be dark and menacing (Dubstep: Example, Dungeon Synth: Example), or bright and inviting (Dubstep: Example, Dungeon Synth: Example)

In short, these two genres share their evokativeness and their versatility. But Dubstep has rarely had it's storytelling potential and atmospheric potential explored, while Dungeon Synth has never broken my neck. The words here don't really convey the real similarities between the two genres, which are mostly in feeling. That is that Dubstep, especially of the deeper variety, can be used to create atmosphere in very similar ways to Dungeon Synth. These atmospheres are different, and the tones that Dubstep arrives at today is often bombastic, loud, and impactful. Deep Dubstep (the remnant of that classic dubstep I talked about earlier) is more atmospheric and ambient, often inspired by horror movies or games. Modern dubstep, in fact, is very inspired by video games (E.g Virtual Riot - Simulation)

Part 3 - The Atmosphere of Dubstep and the Atmosphere of Dungeon Synth: Can they be Combined?

This question has been on my mind for literally years. Would it be possible to combine the atmospheres of both Dungeon Synth and dubstep into something that is convincing, immersive and most of all enjoyable to listen to? To answer this questions we have to look at what atmosphere dubstep can achieve and what atmosphere Dungeon Synth can acheive and then try and synthesise something from there. 

Dubstep Atmosphere Ideas:
1 - Reverberated Basstones are a must eg. This mix

    The reverberated basstones of Deep Dubstep can remind one of a few things. Industrial machinery, deep caverns, a deep dark forest, maybe magic or lightning, robots and spacecraft etc. Only a few of these are useable for our purposes.

2 - Drums

    Dubstep has hard hitting drums, which means that we will need to find a way of creating these drums in a way that is convincingly "dungeon". 

3 - Melodies / Intros (The pure DS part)
   
    Dubstep intros and interludes can be melodic, distorted, clean, rhythmic or anything you really want them to be. In these sections we can just make Dungeon Synth, I will be using my Yamaha keyboard, some preset sounds on Bandlab, and some other synthesizers on my PC's DAW to make the overall Dungeon Synth vibes.

4 - Ambience

    Dubstep can contain ambience behind the drop or in any other part of the track. We can use this to emphasise the Dungeony nature of the track and create some atmosphere and place.


Finally, we have to create a story.
Dungeon synth thrives on story, and Dubstep can too. Unfortunately, the kind of people who make dubstep are not usually the kinds of people to put stories in their albums. But I am. So let's make sure that our DungeonStep album or project has a clear aesthetic idea to go for. 

I have a few ideas:
1. Dungeon Synth meets mechanical Steam Punk Titans
2. Vampires make Dubstep using instruments reminding them of the different time periods they've witnessed, in London Circa 2002
3. A deep dark forest reverberates with an inexplicable magical energy. 

I am going to make a track in each of these aesthetics and then post it on this thread when it's done. Give me a few hours.

Part 4 - What have other artists made so far?

I have been largely disappointed by attempts to fuse DS with other genres. DS seems pure in it's construction and any attempt to alter it loses the magic it already contains. But let's test that theory today together. I have been able to find one DungeonStep album that I think is very good which you can find here. It is not at all the style I'm going to go for, but it was a great stab at what is a very difficult genre blend to undertake.

Conclusion

I'm going to take a stab and see what I can do.
Wish me luck. I'll post results later today.

If any of you have any DungeonStep you reccomend, or that you've made or make in t he future. I would love to hear about it! Feel free to post it in this thread!

[magicwillow]

Ok I've done it!

Here are my two Demos that I've made to showcase what the genre Dungeonstep might look like. I ended up combining themes 1 and 3 for a demo double single that hopefully sounds both like dubsteppy dungeon synth and dungeon synthy dubstep.

Let me know how well you think I did. I am always open to feedback

bxkrug.bandcamp.com/album/the-monstrosity-marches-dungeonstep-demos

[andrewwerdna]

Woah, very dense post! It's all very interesting though, and it seems like you've really thought hard about this. I don't know how much I can say because admittedly I'm a bit biased against dubstep, having the image in my mind of Skrillex and party bros. I realize that's not what it's all about (this video helped change my mind: www.youtube.com/watch?v=-hLlVVKRwk0). But all that said, whenever I hear a "wub-wub" bass drop in a drum and bass mix or whatever I still sour a bit, so unfortunately I don't know if I'll ever be able to go all in on appreciating dungeonstep. I want to try though.

With that out of the way, first I'd like to say that the term "dungeonstep" really does have a nice ring to it. I like that a hell of a lot better than all the "[theme] synth" tags. And next, even though I'm biased against dubstep, I actually think those dungeonstep tracks you made are great and sound really fresh and unique! It does sound a bit like, here's the dungeon synth part, and now here's the dubstep part, without them fully coming together, but they are flowing together seamlessly, and for just being a few hours work that's quite promising I think.

Listening to that Guattari – Accelerationism and I'm being reminded of stuff I've heard that was tagged "dreampunk," which I sort of got the feeling was like moody atmospheric somber vaporwave. Are you familiar with that tag at all? I think it might be in the neighborhood of what you're envisioning maybe. Oh, and Lorn, which I love, I'm also hearing that vibe in this Guattari and am appreciating that.

I kind of want to start getting into dubstep now. I do need to come back to this because I don't have time at the moment to compare all the contrasting genre examples that you gave, but yeah very deep and exciting thoughts about a new potential genre path.

[magicwillow]

Hey thanks so much. Dubstep is a very versatile genre, and I think it has storytelling potential. I have included a playlist of dubstep I made for you that you might like considering your taste. It has a broad variety of dubstep though so that you can find what you like and then look into that artist. In particular I think you would like Liquid Stranger and Haywyre, but you might find a lot to like in the others too. In terms of dreampunk and vaporwave, I am aware of those two genres, and I like Guattari, but I think their approach to the dungeonstep genre is a maximalist approach. I wanted to take the minimalist, ambient dubstep approach, with some deep wubby basses etc. and find a way of merging the two genres. This would mean there would probably need to be a drop, because that is one of the things that has been a staple of dubstep since it was created. But it doesnt mean we have to go bombastic and over the top. The wub sound can represent something in-universe of the album. Lazers on a mech, or machinery, or magic. And if you combine the two genres you might be able to make something interesting. That said there is the main difference between dubstep and DS which is that DS is reminiscent of a time and place within history, whereas Dubstep is not. However, if you did theme two from my post, you might be able to make both the dubstep and DS elements reminiscent of different times, have the DS elements reminiscent of early Black Metal DS, and have the dubstep reminiscent of the London scene circa 2002. This could create a time and place but it would be admittedly quite difficult and like capturing lightning in a bottle.

Listening to Ace Aura and Seven Lions got me thinking maybe a melodic dubstep thing might work better with dungeonstep. I might make another demo to see if that works better.

[andrewwerdna]

I listened to that whole playlist. Thank you very much for putting it together, seems like a great deep introduction to this genre. It is an unfamiliar and challenging style of music for me, but I was definitely digging it at times. My favorite track on this first listen was Tiigers – Quantum, but I'd like to give it a few more spins. Also that Kotori – GAIA was a nice accessible closer.

You say that dubstep could have "storytelling potential," but I personally don't really consider that to be a fundamental aspect of dungeon synth, so I'm not sure that's a very useful focal point to be aiming toward. Some people like to tell stories with their dungeon synth and that's fine, but to me it has always been more about a sense of place rather than events. It is an environment for one to mentally write their own story, and I personally believe that when DS is too dynamic or engaging or demanding of one's attention then one is forced to just passively experience what is being presented to them, rather than going on their own mental journey in the world that the music builds for them to explore. I feel like that's what makes it still fall under the umbrella of "ambient," and what really makes it special. It seems like a very tricky thing to try and make dubstep ambient, but it sounds like that's sort of what you're already grappling with when you say you're going for a more "minimalist" approach than "maximalist."

Also, what is your relationship with black metal? I think a lot of the songs in this playlist "go hard" in a way comparable to black metal, so I'm wondering if it might not be useful to analyze albums that blend black metal and dungeon synth, and then imagining what if it was dubstep instead of black metal, like what if wubs instead of tremolo distorted guitars? Maybe you've already done this?

[magicwillow]

Oct 20, 2023 1:25:12 GMT -5 andrewwerdna said:

I listened to that whole playlist. Thank you very much for putting it together, seems like a great deep introduction to this genre. It is an unfamiliar and challenging style of music for me, but I was definitely digging it at times. My favorite track on this first listen was Tiigers – Quantum, but I'd like to give it a few more spins. Also that Kotori – GAIA was a nice accessible closer.

You say that dubstep could have "storytelling potential," but I personally don't really consider that to be a fundamental aspect of dungeon synth, so I'm not sure that's a very useful focal point to be aiming toward. Some people like to tell stories with their dungeon synth and that's fine, but to me it has always been more about a sense of place rather than events. It is an environment for one to mentally write their own story, and I personally believe that when DS is too dynamic or engaging or demanding of one's attention then one is forced to just passively experience what is being presented to them, rather than going on their own mental journey in the world that the music builds for them to explore. I feel like that's what makes it still fall under the umbrella of "ambient," and what really makes it special. It seems like a very tricky thing to try and make dubstep ambient, but it sounds like that's sort of what you're already grappling with when you say you're going for a more "minimalist" approach than "maximalist."

Also, what is your relationship with black metal? I think a lot of the songs in this playlist "go hard" in a way comparable to black metal, so I'm wondering if it might not be useful to analyze albums that blend black metal and dungeon synth, and then imagining what if it was dubstep instead of black metal, like what if wubs instead of tremolo distorted guitars? Maybe you've already done this?

This is a fantastic point. And it's funny you say this because I didn't read this until now and basically went down the same thought process you have. You're right, when I say storytelling I mean the capturing of place. So my "stories" can better be described as places. The haunted forest, or the mech itself. You're right that I need to look more into how black metal uses DS and then re-approach the dungeon step idea. I have never been a big fan of black metal, but yesterday morning something clicked and I suddenly found myself really enjoying a lot of Black Metal I otherwise wouldnt have liked. I then decided to make a mix of black metal and DS, and it worked out really well, I'll link it in this forum when it's done. When I say "minimalist" I definitely mean Kotori's GAIA as opposed to Skrillex's Bangarang. It's in the sound design. One is noisey, overbearing and rhythmic, it's for dancing to. The other is atmospheric and offers a sense of place. For dungeon step, the stye of dubstep that creates a sense of place is definitely more fitting. So, to answer your questions. Yes I will be looking into these ideas for sure. 

[crystallogic13]

Hey magicwillow , I was catching up with bandcamp dungeon-synth tag and came to your Bxkrug release pointing in this post, which unfortunately as much of the forum I've missed due to being too fuckin busy in real life (miss this forum) and man, I really liked-loved the whole analysis and thought process of mixing your love for dubstep and Dungeon Synth!! Many interesting points and food for thought, also very informative for anyone out of the dubstep scene which I'm clueless of (like many of us, also I'm guilty of being kinda negative biased against it from anything I've listened in the past,but since I love so many genres I'd certainly like to get to listen to the recs/list you posted above)!

In part 2 at the end you mention that (modern) dubstep is influence by Video Games, which could also be added to the similarities you posted in the genre, since DS is also very influence by modern and older videogames and aesthetics, chiptune DS also a favorite genre, although I understand you might mean a more "broad" influence than DS's 8-bit like lovable releases!!

Anyway great thread, analysis and discussion by both of you, I miss the forum, I'm always on a catch up state and hope to see everyone around I'll dig and ressurect some older threads soon I hope

[magicwillow]

Nov 11, 2023 5:40:17 GMT -5 crystallogic13 said:

Hey magicwillow , I was catching up with bandcamp dungeon-synth tag and came to your Bxkrug release pointing in this post, which unfortunately as much of the forum I've missed due to being too fuckin busy in real life (miss this forum) and man, I really liked-loved the whole analysis and thought process of mixing your love for dubstep and Dungeon Synth!! Many interesting points and food for thought, also very informative for anyone out of the dubstep scene which I'm clueless of (like many of us, also I'm guilty of being kinda negative biased against it from anything I've listened in the past,but since I love so many genres I'd certainly like to get to listen to the recs/list you posted above)!

In part 2 at the end you mention that (modern) dubstep is influence by Video Games, which could also be added to the similarities you posted in the genre, since DS is also very influence by modern and older videogames and aesthetics, chiptune DS also a favorite genre, although I understand you might mean a more "broad" influence than DS's 8-bit like lovable releases!!

Anyway great thread, analysis and discussion by both of you, I miss the forum, I'm always on a catch up state and hope to see everyone around I'll dig and ressurect some older threads soon I hope

Thankyou friend, I absolutely agree that the inspiration from video games (including 8-bit) may be a good way of blending genres. I think my attempt to blend these genres has led me towards Black Metal. I am working on a Black Metal, Dubstep, Winter Synth cross. I appreciate your kind words and I'll keep this thread updated with new attempts in the future.

[magicwillow]

UPDATE!
There is a DungeonStep tape coming out sometime soon. I'll keep you all posted.

[magicwillow]

Behold: a dungeonstep album!

Link to digital release: neverwood.bandcamp.com/album/the-dungeon-steps
Link to tape release: bxkrug.bandcamp.com/album/the-dungeon-steps

[amsersegur]

I just listened to a bit of your Dungeon Steps album. Good work! I'll listen more today as time allows. You nailed a lot of the genre mode hallmarks. It took me back to when I used to DJ Dubstep circa 2008ish. I really enjoy that you are making music that is true to your personal voice and taste and that you are making effort to forge your own path. Personally, I love it when different genres get mixed and we are able to hear new sounds and expressions. I get what you were saying in your first post about attempts to mix DS with other genres being disappointing. But whether or not it's successful, I do appreciate the effort and I'm always willing to hear what someone has come up with.

[mahrgdidj]

Enjoyed finding this through the Neverwood “April Fools” post, very satisfying to have a high quality and unique project to reverse expectations from a gag like that. Also sick logo!

[magicwillow]

Apr 1, 2024 12:49:48 GMT -5 amsersegur said:

I just listened to a bit of your Dungeon Steps album. Good work! I'll listen more today as time allows. You nailed a lot of the genre mode hallmarks. It took me back to when I used to DJ Dubstep circa 2008ish. I really enjoy that you are making music that is true to your personal voice and taste and that you are making effort to forge your own path. Personally, I love it when different genres get mixed and we are able to hear new sounds and expressions. I get what you were saying in your first post about attempts to mix DS with other genres being disappointing. But whether or not it's successful, I do appreciate the effort and I'm always willing to hear what someone has come up with.

Thankyou so much! I agree, I always appreciate the effort. I'm so glad you enjoyed it.

[magicwillow]

Apr 2, 2024 9:02:12 GMT -5 mahrgdidj said:

Enjoyed finding this through the Neverwood “April Fools” post, very satisfying to have a high quality and unique project to reverse expectations from a gag like that. Also sick logo!

Thankyou! My friend John Saxon made it for me, he's a very good artist.

[magicwillow]

New video where I breakdown some of my process and choices in making my track "Echoes of Things that Ought to be Avoided".

www.youtube.com/watch?v=ih3stDOmYec