What would your perfect DS video game be like?

[madrayken]

Heyo, as a game developer I'm constantly irritated by the fact that no games really *get* the DS vibe at all. There's plenty of cod fantasy epics full of breezy harpsicords and lutes, but nothing that elicits the gloom and ambience I'm looking for. Dark Souls gets closest, but even that's not quite there for me.

So, the question to you folks: what would your ideal DS game be like?

Lots of combat?
Exploration?
Just vibes and a ton of rain?
Would you even want a DS game?

- Madrayken

[andrewwerdna]

Shadowgate 64 is the most DS-feeling game I've played. I want to make a game like that, except no mazes and better controls.

[vargenhorde]

I'd say Legend of Grimrock or similar first person, tile/turn-based RPGs.

[talvisynth]

^ Agreed on the classic style dungeon crawlers. \o/



Also Heretic & Hexen:

[moreteeth]

I'd argue for Witchhaven and Hexen, but those don't really have the scope I'd look for. Anyway, the perfect dungeon synth video game is in my Steam library right now: The Elder Scrolls II - Daggerfall, released in 1996. I imagine you've already heard of it, or played it, if you're into this sort of thing. Maybe that's even the expected answer; I don't know—but it's still true. 

The music would make great Dungeon Synth too! Here's some gameplay:
video.twimg.com/ext_tw_video/1550397025761443840/pu/vid/674x508/uSHSXdgs0L5-CHin.mp4?tag=12

But I feel like the question you're asking is: "what's the closest a video game could come to being analogous to Dungeon Synth as a concept, or which captures its pneuma." For a Dungeon Synth video game to work, it'd need to derive very particular elements from very particular sources: the plot of Demon's Souls, the art direction of AD&D, the breadth of Daggerfall. I think Tolkien's art would be a good reference, too. Most of all, it needs to seem a little unprofessional—like you've discovered something incomplete, and that still smells like whichever basement it came from.

Are you asking because you're planning on developing a game?

[arillius]

There was an old mid 90s DOS German RPG made by Blue Byte called "Albion" (yes, I know, NOT the same world as Fable ) which contained  top-down 3rd person RPG elements but the dungeons were all first person dungeon crawls.
I've always loved the vibe of the game and felt it could be modernized in a sense.
That being said, it's hard to really state what the "perfect" DS game would be; I enjoy lots of games for lots of different reasons. But for a DS game, you need dungeons and you need atmosphere. A pretty generic statement I suppose, but it's the truth. Those are the two most important elements.

[sinew]

I loved the dungeon crawling parts of Oblivion and Morrowind. They were my favourite parts of the game honestly. I loved going through the prison caverns and sewers at the start of Oblivion, I also loved exploring all the fort undergrounds, dungeons and mines.
With Morrowind, I loved the ambience and design. The sound effects and the artistry, especially of the ancestral tombs, wow they were amazing. It not only made me excited to go around killing and looting stuff, but it also made me equally if not more excited to explore and see the brilliant work of the game designers. Everything was just so cool to look at.
If Morrowind had Oblivion level graphics while still sticking to its original distinctive art style, it would be perfect. I've looked through a few games that could give me the same feel as I had when playing those two games, but nothing is quite right. Skyrim didn't really have that old school atmosphere so I much prefer the other two. Suggestions are very welcome if anyone knows any that would fit my taste!

I know that a lot of games that people would associate dungeon synth with are 2d turn based games, but honestly I'd much prefer a 3d game with a Morrowind feel to it. One where you can explore a little more and have more freedom with combat. About combat, I feel like both Morrowind and Oblivion have it portioned out fairly well (depending on difficulty). I'd like exploration to take priority over combat, definitely - but the player should still feel at least a little anxious at every moment in the case that a monster jumps out of the shadows or if a golem is lurking around the corner. I've never been much good at solving puzzles, but I feel like you just couldn't miss that out. At least a few basic, yet still engaging puzzles here and there. Interactivity is always very good. Caverns, caves, dungeons, chambers, catacombs, tombs, fortresses, you need it all. Another thing that I like is finding little bits of lore scattered around the place. Old letters, carvings, paintings, a corpse which silently tells its own tale. Add that stuff in and it's perfect.
I can't wait to maybe one day discover a game that fits exactly these standards ha ha.

[madrayken]

Apr 28, 2024 4:51:26 GMT -5 moreteeth said:

I'd argue for Witchhaven and Hexen, but those don't really have the scope I'd look for. Anyway, the perfect dungeon synth video game is in my Steam library right now: The Elder Scrolls II - Daggerfall, released in 1996. I imagine you've already heard of it, or played it, if you're into this sort of thing. Maybe that's even the expected answer; I don't know—but it's still true. 

The music would make great Dungeon Synth too! Here's some gameplay:
video.twimg.com/ext_tw_video/1550397025761443840/pu/vid/674x508/uSHSXdgs0L5-CHin.mp4?tag=12

But I feel like the question you're asking is: "what's the closest a video game could come to being analogous to Dungeon Synth as a concept, or which captures its pneuma." For a Dungeon Synth video game to work, it'd need to derive very particular elements from very particular sources: the plot of Demon's Souls, the art direction of AD&D, the breadth of Daggerfall. I think Tolkien's art would be a good reference, too. Most of all, it needs to seem a little unprofessional—like you've discovered something incomplete, and that still smells like whichever basement it came from.

Are you asking because you're planning on developing a game?

[Edit] Thanks for 100% understanding the question. The pneuma. Exactly that.

I'm always developing games. The closest I've got to a proper DS game is making my free game 'Moonring' (which has a 100% DS score by me, Baddoar and Khand, by the way). 
Regarding this question, I'm trying to get to the heart of what it would take to make a game that evoked the atmosphere of DS, and - importantly - had gameplay to match.
I'd need to feel that staring out over a mist-shrouded vale in the rain had meaningful gameplay ramifications (i.e. not just 'a lull in combat' or 'I'm lost').

I feel like 99% of RPGs are utterly beholden to 'quests for idiots' or 'killing things that look a bit swarthy'.
If I am taking a sword to something, I want it to be *evil* and needs to go away. 

So, for me, Monster Hunter in nearly monochrome palette, permanent rain, with a dense open world and a host of things that really want everything dead would be perfect. Elden Ring is close but a bit too bombastic... which some DS is, so it's also a personal taste thing. Will I ever get to make something like this? Who knows...

- Madrayken

[madrayken]

Apr 23, 2024 21:03:16 GMT -5 andrewwerdna said:

Shadowgate 64 is the most DS-feeling game I've played. I want to make a game like that, except no mazes and better controls.

I've been a developer since 1985. HOW HAVE I NEVER HEARD OF THIS?! 

[moreteeth]

Apr 29, 2024 13:12:24 GMT -5 madrayken said:

Apr 28, 2024 4:51:26 GMT -5 moreteeth said:

I'd argue for Witchhaven and Hexen, but those don't really have the scope I'd look for. Anyway, the perfect dungeon synth video game is in my Steam library right now: The Elder Scrolls II - Daggerfall, released in 1996. I imagine you've already heard of it, or played it, if you're into this sort of thing. Maybe that's even the expected answer; I don't know—but it's still true. 

The music would make great Dungeon Synth too! Here's some gameplay:
video.twimg.com/ext_tw_video/1550397025761443840/pu/vid/674x508/uSHSXdgs0L5-CHin.mp4?tag=12

But I feel like the question you're asking is: "what's the closest a video game could come to being analogous to Dungeon Synth as a concept, or which captures its pneuma." For a Dungeon Synth video game to work, it'd need to derive very particular elements from very particular sources: the plot of Demon's Souls, the art direction of AD&D, the breadth of Daggerfall. I think Tolkien's art would be a good reference, too. Most of all, it needs to seem a little unprofessional—like you've discovered something incomplete, and that still smells like whichever basement it came from.

Are you asking because you're planning on developing a game?

[Edit] Thanks for 100% understanding the question. The pneuma. Exactly that.

I'm always developing games. The closest I've got to a proper DS game is making my free game 'Moonring' (which has a 100% DS score by me, Baddoar and Khand, by the way). 
Regarding this question, I'm trying to get to the heart of what it would take to make a game that evoked the atmosphere of DS, and - importantly - had gameplay to match.
I'd need to feel that staring out over a mist-shrouded vale in the rain had meaningful gameplay ramifications (i.e. not just 'a lull in combat' or 'I'm lost').

I feel like 99% of RPGs are utterly beholden to 'quests for idiots' or 'killing things that look a bit swarthy'.
If I am taking a sword to something, I want it to be *evil* and needs to go away. 

So, for me, Monster Hunter in nearly monochrome palette, permanent rain, with a dense open world and a host of things that really want everything dead would be perfect. Elden Ring is close but a bit too bombastic... which some DS is, so it's also a personal taste thing. Will I ever get to make something like this? Who knows...

- Madrayken

Regarding the "pneuma" of dungeon synth, I think for a game to accurately capture it, the game needs to sell you on its metanarrative. There are essentially two fictions within the genre: the fiction of its context and the fiction of the fantastical world. So, for example, in my own work, I'll set the Bandcamp release date of each release to sometime in the mid-to-late eighties. So a game can't present itself as a "modern throwback" to early role-playing games; it has to either have been made during that time or pretend that it was. I also firmly believe that seizing the pneuma of something else requires you to not be entirely inspired by that thing, but by what it was influenced by. If you look at the album covers for — let's say — Fief, they aren't paintings of Conan and Elrond; rather, they're paintings of Beowulf and Fionn mac Cumhaill.

To pile onto what your comment regarding meaningful gameplay, I think what you're saying is that there needs to be a system in place which encourages the player to actively engage with its aesthetics, i.e., it won't be a true dungeon synth video game experience unless the medium is used to facilitate interaction between the player and the visual traditions of the genre. I think that's certainly interesting, but if such a system is too obtrusive, it effectively devalues the purpose of ambient visual enjoyment by motivating the player with a secondary reward. It's very Schopenhauerian. 

Also, I downloaded your game on Steam; haven't played played it yet, but it looks pretty good from what I've seen. I'll also take a peek at the OST on Bandcamp when I get the chance. Cheers!

[moreteeth]

Apr 28, 2024 21:14:23 GMT -5 sinew said:

I know that a lot of games that people would associate dungeon synth with are 2d turn based games, but honestly I'd much prefer a 3d game with a Morrowind feel to it. One where you can explore a little more and have more freedom with combat. About combat, I feel like both Morrowind and Oblivion have it portioned out fairly well (depending on difficulty). I'd like exploration to take priority over combat, definitely - but the player should still feel at least a little anxious at every moment in the case that a monster jumps out of the shadows or if a golem is lurking around the corner. I've never been much good at solving puzzles, but I feel like you just couldn't miss that out. At least a few basic, yet still engaging puzzles here and there. Interactivity is always very good. Caverns, caves, dungeons, chambers, catacombs, tombs, fortresses, you need it all. Another thing that I like is finding little bits of lore scattered around the place. Old letters, carvings, paintings, a corpse which silently tells its own tale. Add that stuff in and it's perfect.
I can't wait to maybe one day discover a game that fits exactly these standards ha ha.

    

I'd argue for the same; 3d graphics are the way to go. I'd imagine a perfect dungeon synth video game would be a slightly ugly looking first person RPG, something akin to the level of quality in an old Quake map. I associate two-dimensional turn based combat with the Japanese tradition — Chrono Trigger, Final Fantasy, etc. That is to say, the vibe is entirely different. Regarding interactivity, I think you'd have to hide some stuff from the player; magic loses some if its, well, magic, when it's placed in the hands of the player as a tangible tool. It needs to be more abstract than that to maintain aesthetic cohesion, and I think that exploration would need to inhabit a larger place in the gameplay loop than you may realize as a consequence.

Anyway, that's all I have to contribute.