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Post by Tidemancer on May 5, 2024 3:45:25 GMT -5
Hi everyone, I've been listening to DS for a long time, and making music for some time now too as Tidemancer. I hope I'm not starting a war here but I'd like to discuss some things I have recently seen happening in this community, some of which I can't say I like, in all honesty.
We all know DS has its roots in black metal, which means it shares some of its fanbase and with it a lot of negative attitude I've seen in the metal community over the years, mostly gatekeeping. I get that we all love this genre and want to "protect" it to keep it pure (if that even means anything) and true to its roots in a way, but especially in the Facebook groups I've seen some frankly disheartening topics and discussions.
The main DS Facebook group has now banned AI art, which is something I find a bit extremist. One thing is if people try to pass AI generated art or music as their own, but I honestly see nothing wrong with people using AI generated artwork, as I have done myself for this project. I find it a bit hypocritical to ban AI art while countless DS releases just use copyright free or anyway "borrowed" (stolen?) art, like Gustave Doré drawings, medieval prints or even old TTRPG pictures. What's the difference then?
Also, regarding genre and instrumentation: there was controversy some years ago when comfy synth emerged, but that seems to have died down, at least a bit. But still, we're seeing people debating online whether some releases can be considered DS or not, and I frankly find it tiring. We've had thousands of releases with old synths, general midi etc that have been in many cases almost indistinguishable from one another, why can't we just be happy that we're seeing something new appearing? Can't we just classify music based on quality rather than some arbitrary genre orthodoxy criteria?
As of now, I'm writing and producing Book II for my Tidemancer project, which will feature less synths and more strings, instruments like dulcimers and ukulele, drums and guitars, building from the foundations of DS and incorporating elements of post-rock, black metal and even punk in some instances. I was happy because I thought I was producing some different, using what I've listened to and learned to craft a new experience I hoped people might like but now I'm starting to wonder if I should even release it at all, if there will be more backlash than anything due to my music not being "DS enough".
Again, I hope I'm not starting a war here, but I felt I needed to get this stuff off my chest and I'm curious about what everyone thinks.
Cheers!
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Post by bartizanier on May 5, 2024 10:31:26 GMT -5
I think you should just ignore the noise and make music that you love. That's the most I can say without starting to rant a little.
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Post by soarloser on May 5, 2024 21:12:23 GMT -5
I predict a sort of Egyptian pharaoh-pyramid-cursed tomb-mummy Orientalist flavor of dungeon synth is going to emerge in the near future, unless that's already happened and I missed it.
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Post by amnor on May 5, 2024 23:32:08 GMT -5
I predict a sort of Egyptian pharaoh-pyramid-cursed tomb-mummy Orientalist flavor of dungeon synth is going to emerge in the near future, unless that's already happened and I missed it. This is tantalizing. I've already used darbuka and dominant Phrygian scale sometimes; guess I'd better lean more into that. And Tidemancer, I also use dulcimers and drums.
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Post by doomed on May 6, 2024 2:27:15 GMT -5
I agree with what you're saying. A lot of what you see in the main facebook groups is just boomers being cringe and elitists. The subject of ai is utterly impossible to discuss or even reference there and although my views on ai have personally shifted, it doesn't mean anything. It's an opinion, but gatekeepers believe their opinions are law, especially the ones that have a following. It's just a bunch of ego stroking. And it's not just cringe, it's also unoriginal. People have been gatekeeping black metal since the 90's and now all these griefters are swarming DS to do it all over again since it failed with black metal. Remember, these are people that feel personal satisfaction and accomplishment by joining a niche community on the internet and being at the "cool kid's table" while being assholes to everyone else.
As for people looking down on new sub-genres of dungeon synth and saying x or y isn't trve dungeon synth, well, they are fighting a losing battle. Just look at how much black metal has evolved, given that it started out as the most hard to approach, gatekept genre in metal. But, more and more amazing artists kept pushing the genre and it resulted in a lot of amazing music being appreciated by a lot more people. Dungeon Synth will and is already following that same path. It's a genre that can be heavily experimented with and the results are amazing. No amount of gatekeeping or elitism will keep dungeon synth from evolving. And I personally love exploring sub-genres, I did with black metal and I have been with my time since discovering dungeon synth and as of not that long ago, participating in it. The more the genre grows, the more elitists seethe, so just let them angry post on fb while being terminally online.
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Post by gambali on May 7, 2024 18:45:08 GMT -5
I think you should just ignore the noise and make music that you love. That's the most I can say without starting to rant a little. I agree, make the music you want to hear and ignore all else. That said, I'd certainly appreciate a bartizanier rant.
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Post by Daytol on May 8, 2024 18:02:47 GMT -5
Pretty good posts and points in here in general, especially in regards to Facebook nonsense. They're crap. Dungeon synth has been around for over 30 years now and it's going to continuously evolve. Just look at country music and how different it sounds now: with those Time/Life compilation releases being advertised on tv, I was surprised country sounded totally different in the 1950s. It was around the 1960s where it got really swarmy and you could hear how thick country singers' accents were. Then when Garth Brooks arrived he incorporated rock elements into it. And yet for the people who only listened to country and didn't like rock, guess what a lot of country sounds like nowadays? Rock. And now there are some black country singers who are making it more modern too. Not much sounds like "old school" country nowadays. I think you should just ignore the noise and make music that you love. That's the most I can say without starting to rant a little. Agree 100%.
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Post by Mike Moth on May 10, 2024 11:10:05 GMT -5
I think you should just ignore the noise and make music that you love. That's the most I can say without starting to rant a little. The most relevant point. I do find it interesting though that, from what I can tell, the folks who most vigorously (and rudely) gatekeep in the Facebook groups were either not born yet or were little kids when the the scene was starting to coalesce. Maybe you shouldn't claim ownership of and police things that you just showed up for after the fact? Just a thought.
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Post by Daytol on May 10, 2024 13:03:31 GMT -5
^Yep, know it all "experts" can be annoying.
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Post by lolth on May 12, 2024 15:18:42 GMT -5
AI goes entirely counter to the ethos of dungeon synth, and in my opinion, should not be tolerated. Not only is it bad for artists by robbing them of their much needed and underpaid niche of creating artwork for albums, but it feels really lazy and inauthentic to use artwork that you didn't even create for your release. I'll take a sloppy J-card with nothing but a pencil sketch and an album title over the most "beautiful" AI "art" piece any day.
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Post by andrewwerdna on May 12, 2024 23:02:52 GMT -5
AI goes entirely counter to the ethos of dungeon synth, and in my opinion, should not be tolerated. Not only is it bad for artists by robbing them of their much needed and underpaid niche of creating artwork for albums, but it feels really lazy and inauthentic to use artwork that you didn't even create for your release. I'll take a sloppy J-card with nothing but a pencil sketch and an album title over the most "beautiful" AI "art" piece any day. What does it mean to "create" an artwork? The AI is not entirely creating it alone, at the very least I think it should be thought of as a collaborative effort between the person and the AI, even if the person's contribution is minimal. A lot of work can be put into AI art however, as much or more than traditional art if one wants, and it can be quite distinct to the person's ideas and aesthetic sensibilities if they know how to use it well. And I think most importantly, the AI art can be deeply meaningful to the person who generates it, and they might want to share it with others, whether they can expect to be credited for its creation or not. It makes sense that it not be allowed in all spaces, but I think saying it shouldn't be tolerated to exist at all is unjust. I understand the negative reaction that many people are having to this though, it certainly complicates things. And even though I think the backlash has been excessive, perhaps it will serve some good in buying time to reframe things and somewhat make sense of these new tools before beginning to integrate them. I just hope people won't entrench themselves so deeply in these positions that they do not leave themselves open to reconsidering and changing their minds in the future.
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Post by Tidemancer on May 13, 2024 0:05:10 GMT -5
AI goes entirely counter to the ethos of dungeon synth, and in my opinion, should not be tolerated. Not only is it bad for artists by robbing them of their much needed and underpaid niche of creating artwork for albums, but it feels really lazy and inauthentic to use artwork that you didn't even create for your release. I'll take a sloppy J-card with nothing but a pencil sketch and an album title over the most "beautiful" AI "art" piece any day. What’s the difference between AI art and a picture taken directly from medieval texts, D&D artwork or copyright free pictures, which is what the majority of DS cover art is?
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Post by sinew on May 13, 2024 4:24:51 GMT -5
AI goes entirely counter to the ethos of dungeon synth, and in my opinion, should not be tolerated. Not only is it bad for artists by robbing them of their much needed and underpaid niche of creating artwork for albums, but it feels really lazy and inauthentic to use artwork that you didn't even create for your release. I'll take a sloppy J-card with nothing but a pencil sketch and an album title over the most "beautiful" AI "art" piece any day. What’s the difference between AI art and a picture taken directly from medieval texts, D&D artwork or copyright free pictures, which is what the majority of DS cover art is? In my opinion, AI art entirely lacks soul. There is absolutely no human involvement behind it besides putting some words in a generator. I mean, imagine musicians replacing all their vocals with generic TTS. It's pretty low effort and has noticeable faults. It just doesn't feel human. Humanity and soul is what makes art. Plus, AI generation and using art from medieval texts and such as you previously mentioned - both are essentially the same thing (stealing) except AI generation is a little lazier. AI art software learned how to make such 'good' images by finding artwork created by people that had posted it online, then inputting the images into their system, which would then analyse the images and 'learn' from them. All AI art software has done this without the artists' permission. Have you heard of that artist AI uprising? Essentially all artists were upset that their work had been used without their permission to enhance a software that could put them out of a job. Many were actively campaigning against the use of AI. With people taking an old D&D art piece, slapping a b&w filter and a logo on it and calling it a day, I don't like that either. I think it's pretty lazy lol, one could call it stealing too. However I think it is slightly more respectable than AI generation as you're only stealing from one artist rather than hundreds of thousands. (Haha, half joke.) I feel that people should just commission artists to make their covers for them or do it themselves. But if one lacks the money or skill to do either, photobashing is a thing. It's been recently gaining popularity. I've seen a few people use this method for creating DS album covers. The general opinion is that photobashing is disconnected enough from slapping a b&w filter on a photo for it to not be called theft or laziness. I hold this opinion too. Plus, this method will leave you feeling like you've actually accomplished something with your own hands rather than just mashing your keyboard in a generator, taking the image from that and having a few people give you a side-eye for it. Collages also work! Even if the majority of DS album covers are stolen, it doesn't mean that it should be the standard. Just because someone works with little effort doesn't mean that you should too.
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Post by Mike Moth on May 13, 2024 8:22:23 GMT -5
"There is absolutely no human involvement behind it."
You say that like it's a bad thing. Have you seen humans lately? Definitely not a very savory species.
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Post by sinew on May 13, 2024 9:11:35 GMT -5
"There is absolutely no human involvement behind it." You say that like it's a bad thing. Have you seen humans lately? Definitely not a very savory species. You speak like a robot overlord or something lol. Anyway, I think we've always been like this tbh. Humanity past and present has always had its share of good and bad
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