Vaporwave

[andrewwerdna]

This gets brought up every now and then in regard to dungeon synth, people seem to see similarities. There was a bit of an exchange about this in the Idyllic Synth thread, and I thought maybe this was worth its own topic.

I do see certain similarities as well, however I also think there is a pretty severe rift in attitude, and I agree with Tyrannus that I think this comes down to sincerity. Perhaps not all vaporwave is insincere, but I think it is this image of cynical self-aware detachment which defines vaporwave. I don't think dungeon synth is conventionally cynical; it is often quite pessimistic, but not cynical, or at least not cynical about the vision. I think the description of dungeon synth as escapist is very important in this regard because it suggests a complete break from reality, it implies high fantasy. And I think visions of cynical self-awareness, no matter how beautiful and earnest, almost by definition exist in two worlds at one time, the world of the vision and the bleak reality. So I think the ideal of dungeon synth is to make a clean break from this world into a new one, while the ideal of vaporwave would be to knowingly see the world in a different light. For example, to describe a vaporwave artist as being naive would be an insult, because self-awareness is a part of the vision. To describe dungeon synth as naive would not be an insult, but rather a compliment, because it implies an unsophisticated vision. In dungeon synth it is better to be unsophisticated (at least in terms of vision, not necessarily in execution, for instance I'd consider Tolkien to be unsophisticated in this sense) because then one can expect less attachment to this world and more attachment to some other world. Ironically, the "Trve DS" backlash right now is perhaps less sophisticated in this regard than the people experimenting with noise and toys; they are quite right in a sense, I think it's not just a matter of objective qualities in the music itself, but rather an encroaching shift in attitude which is bothering so many people. Escapism is a fragile thing. "Seriousness" is what's usually cited as the source of dispute.

So I will say the fundamental distinction is that vaporwave is self-aware and dungeon synth is not. This is not to say dungeon synth artists are not self-aware and sophisticated, but rather that reality has no bearing on the vision, or else it ceases to be dungeon synth. That's why I'm also not worried about these peripheral experiments, because I think the foundations have already been set, and traditional dungeon synth will always be traditional dungeon synth and that will never change. Some years ago I'd be frothing at the mouth at the idea of "dungeon noise," because more than anything else I wanted ds to break away from dark ambient (Cold Meat Industry stuff). But I think other genres are no longer a threat to overtaking the traditional vision, and if anything tradition is more of a threat by turning dungeon synth into just another consumer good, which is what I think ruined black metal. 

For the record I think Deepforest - Blackvalley is cool, but I also wasn't surprised at the backlash. I don't sense much cynicism here, which is something I think traditional dungeon synth should rightfully be fearful of, however the aesthetic is definitely associated with some hard-line cynicism.

[andrewwerdna]

So more generally on the topic of vaporwave, I wouldn't consider myself a fan, however I am occasionally fascinated by it. I consider James Ferraro's Far Side Virtual to be the sort of touchstone of this genre's core vision, but I consider the album to be beautifully repulsive in the same way that Xynfonica and other Shekaloth material is. But in general I'm not a fan of the traditional "found sound" long-sample aspect of the genre, just because I've always been a little bit annoyed at samples that are more than a single note, it's almost like the artist is cheating. I know the whole point is that it's not supposed to matter but it still bugs me.

As for albums which are actually pleasant to listen to and don't make you want to kill yourself, I've noticed a lot of really great stuff tagged as dreampunk recently. I especially enjoyed DARKPYRAMID - New Humans, which almost seems to have more of an escapist attitude, so perhaps it's not vaporwave after all.

[thekeeper]

I think the cynicism aspect is somewhat of a generalization. I think vaporwave can often share the same nostalgic aspects of DS, at least more vaporwave now than the foundations of vaporwave which had a more conceptual critique aspect to it that I described in terms of a critical era-specific hauntology. For example, one of VW's current 'big name' artists is death's dynamic shroud.wmv. I listened to an interview with them and their concept of 'nuwrld', which has a lot of similarities to DS. They're really inspired by and based a lot of their music on the atmospheres and feelings of generation 4 and 5 video games (Saturn and Dreamcast in particular) but in nostalgic retrospect: the feeling of a online game world being transportatively (un)real, the magic realism of childhood wonder with these kinds of worlds, but with the self-awareness of the growth from that, a bygone era but an era they're focusing on for a very dungeon-esque reason of vying for the atmospheric feelings of a fantastical past alter-world. They use a lot of Phantasy Star Online samples, Nights samples, mostly games. I think there's a naive sincerity to their music that is similar to the sincerity of DS (maybe less naive, but I can empathize). This album is my favorite (all Tenchu samples). I think vaporwave has become too sonically and influentially varied to pinpoint cynicism to it as a whole anymore, but I think there's a cynical "presentation of what didn't happen but everyone thought would during this time" thing to a lot of the foundational works. Some VW is very cynical but some is very escapist (or at least transportative). I think VW can be really sad and tragic at times, there's a wide range of feelings that can come from it.

I agree on the point of naivety working to aid what DS is doing, there's also an 'aloneness' to that naivety that boosts the transportative sincerity. "Reality has no bearing on the vision", certainly, and that's one reason why I tagged Deepforest as 'post-dungeon synth', jokingly but also kind of sincerely. Adding the "classic-vaporesque self-awareness" maybe removes that DS tenet that borders on innocence, but this was intentional on my part, an intentional component of critique. That might be why it got some backlash since I'm putting escapism itself under analysis. I don't consider Deepforest a dungeon synth project, rather than a tape music project with DS influence (I feel hesitant to call it a vapor project for some reason). I agree on the traditions of DS already being set. I think the fact that we can even describe some new projects as 'old school dungeon synth' speaks to that, but sometimes if an artist is trying to sound too much like Mortiis or something it can bore me (unless it's really good/well done and has at least some semblance of memorable distinction). I'm with you on the DS-commercialism bit, especially now that we can pick out like a DS-foundational-formula, someone can just take a three-chord-Mortiis style progression and produce a literal "product" in the commercial sense than a product in the sincere artistic sense. And of course we know DS is still really obscure and small, but I think the size of DS and small fanbase could give even more potential to kind of like giving people what they're looking for to gain admiration, or doing something different for the sole purpose of being different knowing that 'old-school' is now a distinction. I think it can work in both ways now: some people hold experimentation in ultra-high regard for the sake of experimentation; some people hold DS-traditionalism in ultra-high regard for the sake of being a variation on a theme. Sincerity, daresay naivety, is what matters most to me. I want to hear artists producing music for themselves, not for any kind of reaction, whether that's admiration or distaste, from the scene.

[thekeeper]

Some vaporwave albums I really like:











Some people are going to hate this one:


I posted this to the DS-tumblr a while ago. This was a Vektroid project that didn't come out until years after she made it, I think some DS fans might like this even if they don't like VW at all:

[kaptaincarbon]

I was just talking about this with someone on reddit when I asking about the disloution of vaporewave and the possible connections to the current state of DS. Ill just post the users reply.

[In reference to the recent popularity of DS]

 Sounds similar to what happened in vaporwave. Vaporwave kind of had two bubbles, one at the beginning of 2012 and another at the end of 2015. The former blew due to the rabid and immediate image board and social media followings of vaporwave that came about following Blank Banshee 0 and FLORAL SHOPPE - although, admittedly I wasn't around for this and can't speak much of it. The latter came about primarily due to the slow yet steady increase in producers and popularity that kind of saturated the community with low-effort and low-quality releases that were little more than slowed-down adult contemporary samples with some glitchy editing. Since vaporwave is a pretty low-barrier genre of music to make (if you have Audacity and a YouTube ripper, you're set), the genre was seeing a glut of releases and new artists that many in the more established community thought were diminishing its quality. Several high-profile (in the community, at least) labels such as Dream Catalogue dropped vaporwave almost entirely, which angered a substantial amount of longtime fans and led to the creation of "hardvapor" when HKE (one of the most beloved artists in vaporwave up until now) created the album Vaporwave Is Dead and had several notable beefs with established vaporwave artists (caused by him or otherwise). It's a split that's very much still around. Nowadays these beefs with each other are seen more as ironic joshing, but back in 2015 feelings were definitely hurt and there are many labels and producers who refused to work with each other as a result.
I'd say for vaporwave in 2015, it was less "it's popular now, fuck off newbies" and people trying to add new things to the mix, and it's more a result of vaporwave's low barrier of entry for new producers that resulted in a glut of releases that did nothing to expand the genre other than make a million copies of FLORAL SHOPPE (and there's much more vaporwave to check out than that album) and saw vaporwave's "aesthetic" as purely for ironic purposes rather than an authentic means of musical expression.

I think people compare the two since both of them sort of fit into the umbrella of micogenres. The difference is this current DS wave is a continuation of the first one which could or could not be considered a microgenre. When discussing microgenres, it can be as trivial as Seapunk or as serious as Witchhouse. I also asked about the sincerity of vaporwave 




As for vaporwave being half a joke... if you ask me, that was the primary issue in 2012. You had people coming into the scene who legitimately thought vaporwave was a silly meme and that's all - kind of like with Simpsonwave in 2016. People heard "リサフランク420 / 現代のコンピュー" by Vektroid on FLORAL SHOPPE and thought it was just a joke instead of a piece of music that purposely took advantage of nostalgia for an era that many vaporwave producers didn't actually experience. Many of the early vaporwave albums (e.g. Shader by Sacred Tapestry, REDEFINING THE WORKPLACE by INTERNET CLUB, and Far Side Virtual by James Ferraro) were created to explore the strange pseudo-cyberpunk of early computer culture and turn-of-the-millennium business culture. Vaporwave absolutely has its joke side, and the irony aspect is certainly a big part of the scene - but the split came about when community members began to think that irony was the main point of vaporwave.

I think you all are right in saying that DS has more sincerity in making escapist music but that is not to say that there isn't attraction for the irony. I think the comparison is made since both are intent genres that were "discovered" and have a catchy selling point for people who love to gobble up musical novelties. 

[thekeeper]

kaptaincarbon , interesting points. There's surely a similarity between VW and DS on the basis of their novelty in the eyes of many people. I feel that it's less so now in the VW scene. The memetic and ironic aspect is more diminished nowadays in VW, but it still has semblances of that, everyone is aware of how the genre's treated by most but maybe just don't care anymore(?), "yeah, people think it's all a joke but oh well". The meme-reputation is kind of unfortunate I guess but you can tell a lot of the time who's making something just for participation points versus who's being sincere, and that's not to say that all participation-music sounds bad and that I don't enjoy some of it. VW seems goofy to people as much as DS does. "People just pitch-shifting Japanese soft jazz and funk?" and "Basement metal geeks just hammering out slow keys on a cheap keyboard?". I think some DS artists may be offended/put-off by the participation releases because they want the genre as a whole to be seen as sincere, people seeing their own work as sincere, but I don't think the kind of QC is possible, and I don't think there are as many 'participation releases' as people feel that there are. VW now is still good and there are a ton of great artists and releases, same with DS. Like Andrew has said, it's just kind of lame if people start to make DS just to become an artist who's making it for some micro-commercial reason, because the gimmick is minutely popular right now (not even 'popular', but you know what I mean), or if they're making old-school sounding DS just to appeal to more traditional fans since the formula has been identified and there might be a better chance of being liked faster.

[kaptaincarbon]

If the recent history of VW says anything, the DS will have a bubble(maybe now), burst and then have the people who were still interested continue to make it regardless of popularity. I think i only compare the two in terms of culture rather than sound. DS has much more to do with things like Witchhouse or even power electronics / ritual ambient than VW. i think itll be a few years before PE gets a popularity boost. 

[Alder]

This discussion really makes me wish there was a modern version of something like Ishkur's Guide* covering the internet-age genre explosion(s) of the late 90s up to today.  Hell, one could probably make an intensive catalog just of the different "sub-sounds" of DS.

I also agree with the notion (can't remember where I read it first) that a major motivator of the idea that DS is experiencing a big bump in experimentalism is due to the fact that the "traditionalist base" of the genre is really well-established and broadly agreed upon, to the point where artists can make "throw-back" or "old-school" DS music.  It speaks volumes to the (micro)genre coming of age.  In my (somewhat limited) experience of genre fruition, this probably means we're due for the dawn of a few splinter groups or spin-off genres (Castle Synth?  Tunic-Core?  Wizard Step? Swamp Ambient?).  Also wouldn't be even mildly surprised if this is already considered the case & I'm just unawares.

Sometimes I wonder if VW's so-called downfall is partly due to the apparent unwillingess (inability?) to recognize the microgenre had grown into a macro-genre with all sorts of illegitimate children, red-headed stepsons, and adopted iguanas jostling for space under the same banner of Vaporwave™.  I hear a lot of grumbling (in general, not nec. this forum) about how splintering into sub-genres is silly (it certainly can be), but just look at, say, Metal and Hip-Hop.  Both were once essentially micro-genres themselves, but now it would seem ridiculous to claim Dirty South & Cloud Rap are inseparable or that Bathory & Tool are bosom buddies...


It's good to have these discussions, in my opinion, even (especially?) if there's no consensus.  
I can't help recalling the incredible hope & optimism for Witch House's future in c. 2010, followed by [opinion alert] the incredibly disappointing state of the genre just a few years later  that, as far as I can tell, was due to it's "discovery" by the Internet-at-Large, similar to how many see the VW arc.  I vaguely worry a bit for the future of DS, which seems to act almost as a refuge for many of us, but at the same time it does seem less-accessible and thus possibly more secure in it's sincerity than VW or WH, as others have mentioned above.



*For the un-initiated, Ishkur's Guide (http://techno.org/electronic-music-guide/) is an interactive, highly opinionated "family tree" attempt at cataloging electronic music from the 1950s up to early 00s. There's a fair amount to criticize, but it's an informative & helpful overview.
If you want to skip out on the Flash animation & samples, there's a text write-up here: tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Website/IshkursGuideToElectronicMusic

[thekeeper]

I miss witch house.

[kaptaincarbon]

My friends and I were laughing at the witchhouse aesthetic trying extra hard to make their stuff unsearchable in internet engines as if trying to make themselves fade into obscurity.

[thekeeper]

Apr 27, 2017 14:28:46 GMT -5 kaptaincarbon said:

My friends and I were laughing at the witchhouse aesthetic trying extra hard to make their stuff unsearchable in internet engines as if trying to make themselves fade into obscurity.

Lol it was a weird time. A lot of intentionally unsearchable unicode artists had like actual pronunciations, added a exclusivity aspect I guess but no one really cared about being popular. ///▲▲▲\\\ was Void (or Horse MacGyver), ▲ was Pyramid, ▼□■□■□■ was Mourning Star, ✞▇∆▇╘▀V◄►ᴉ◄►▇∆▇✞ was Lovedied, †‡† was Ritualz, ~▲†▲~ was Xwxwxwxwv, § was Silver Strain. Some stuff only existed as hard to find zip files, too, sometimes from like one ripped demo CD.

[Alder]

Apr 27, 2017 14:39:22 GMT -5 thekeeper said:

Apr 27, 2017 14:28:46 GMT -5 kaptaincarbon said:

My friends and I were laughing at the witchhouse aesthetic trying extra hard to make their stuff unsearchable in internet engines as if trying to make themselves fade into obscurity.

A lot of intentionally unsearchable unicode artists had actual pronunciations ... [like] Xwxwxwxwv.

Ha!

But, I have to admit at the time I thought the unpronounceable thing was the absolute coolest, Punkest thing & derived a fair amount of smug self-satisfaction about how cool I was just for knowing how to say "†‡†" out loud.  However, this faded as no one in the Real World ever wanted to talk about it, anyway.

My path to the world of DS is one of the seemingly rare ones that wasn't through Black Metal - witch house introduced me to the world of internet microgenres, eventually leading to my personal "discovery" of both vaporwave & DS, which is almost certainly one of the reasons I conflate the two genres.  
I have to wonder how many other people found the dungeons from this angle of approach?

[kaptaincarbon]

I did like the aesthetic is obscurity with witchhouse especially in a time when everything is searchable and consumable. As much as it gets caught up in its own tropes sometimes, the deliberate action of taking oneself out of the intenret or at least masking ones presence is interesting for artists who have it as a default when starting. This is what I found interesting about DS up until a month ago, since it seemed relatively obscure even by internet standards.

[andrewwerdna]

I missed the boat on the witch house thing. The concept seemed fascinating, but I couldn't find anything I actually liked.

[thekeeper]

Apr 28, 2017 6:30:13 GMT -5 andrewwerdna said:

I missed the boat on the witch house thing. The concept seemed fascinating, but I couldn't find anything I actually liked.

I usually recommend this to people who ask:


Easily my favorite witch house release, one of the earlier works of the genre from Tri Angle records