Vaporwave

[Alder]

Apr 28, 2017 9:16:20 GMT -5 thekeeper said:

Apr 28, 2017 6:30:13 GMT -5 andrewwerdna said:

I missed the boat on the witch house thing. The concept seemed fascinating, but I couldn't find anything I actually liked.

I usually recommend this to people who ask:


Easily my favorite witch house release, one of the earlier works of the genre from Tri Angle records

Seconded - this is also the first album I tend to recommend to people showing the first titches of interest in the genre.

I would also suggest Balam Acab - Wander Wonder, another early-ish (2011) Tri Angle release & one I think has a lot of underground/dungeon/cavern/mystical aspects that would appeal to a DS fan:



NB: This album was pretty frequently argued about as to whether it is Actually Witch House™ (I don't think Tri Angle records ever used that specific term), but it's definitely in the family & history seems to remember it as such.

[andrewwerdna]

I actually have both of those albums. I think I had gotten Mumbai because I heard it cited as a representative album of the genre. I think I liked it, but usually didn't finish listening to it and just glanced occasionally as a curiosity. I didn't even know Wander Wonder was considered witch house. I quite like that one.

[andrewwerdna]

This is the kind of thing I was always hoping to get from witch house, but it never delivered.

[Deleted]

If you compare dungeon synth to vaporwave, you should just stop listening to the genre. Dungeon synth is a genre with an actual 20+ year history with roots in black metal and dark ambient.

Vapowave is hardly even a legitimate form of music with literally zero credible history outside of the bandcamp internet sphere. I personally find this comparison extremely offensive and I think most serious fans of the genre do as well.

[andrewwerdna]

Well, I'd agree with you if the comparisons were just "nostalgia and cheap synthesizers," but I think the comparisons here are more about considering why there is/was surging interest in both of these genres while utilizing the same avenues of distribution. I think one can compare one genre to any other without necessarily embracing either of them. In fact, if you consider vaporwave to be such a horrible thing, I think it might be worthwhile to at least briefly consider why vaporwave is so horrible and how it fundamentally differs from something like dungeon synth so that dungeon synth does not fall into the same trap, not just surface-level comparisons, but what motivates the artists and listeners; I think you'll find there are similarities between the two groups even if they do come from thoroughly different perspectives. As I said in the opening post, I think the primary distinction, if you get down to the core of motivation for escape, vaporwave is cynical while dungeon synth is earnest; of course there are many other surface-level differences, however by understanding this core difference I think we come to better understand why vaporwave is shit and dungeon synth is awesome, lest we might unknowingly follow the path that might lead dungeon synth to becoming shitty in the same way.

But there are exceptions. Listen to this and tell me it's not legitimate music. This came out of the vaporwave scene:

[andrewwerdna]

I saw your post in the "True Dungeon Synth" group, here's my response before you deleted it.

Comparisons are frequently being made, most often by outsiders, however I don't think that's something which should be ignored. Even if the conclusion of the discussion is that we should reject all aspects of vaporwave and its attitude, I still think it's a discussion worth having. If people are going to say we're like vaporwave, we should have a substantive response to say how we're not. On the surface there seem to be very few similarities, however there is a clear overlap in some of the new audience ds is receiving. Should we not be prepared to fight back if need be? Should we not have a clear principle to point to that differentiates us? The surface aspects of ds would be easy for a vaporwave artist to replicate.

[kaptaincarbon]

It is interesting how sensitive of an issue this is for some as it showcases a lot of self conscious rebukes against any comparisons as if even the mere mention is going to fracture the genre. Even if VW isn't comparable in sound and history, you can certainly compare the trajectory in an internet based genre that gained a massive amount of attention in a short period. Power electronics or death industrial would be the same if for some reasn they capatured the interest of outsiders

[thekeeper]

Would a venn-diagram serve as an over-simplification? Or just too dorky?

[thekeeper]

Fairly DS sounding insert from a recent vapor tape I bought:

[surlaneige]

As someone who was aware of witch house and vaporwave from their earliest days, before either of them had a name and came to be defined as legitimate genres, i think maybe i can add something to this discussion.

The main difference i see between all these things is that dungeon synth existed ages before it came to have an epithet to define its borders as a genre in its own right, and required an effort to collate work that was already 'out there' for a long time without previously having been grouped away from the larger scenes from which these pieces of music sprang forth; they were more often seen as spin-offs or strange anomalies, loosely associating around a particular theme, and really not defined within a particular unique area.

The retrospective titling and subsequent grouping of these anomalous, ephemeral, dusty fuzzy old synth tapes has really been the birth of the genre as a thing in itself, as a space to aim for, and in this way it bears similarity to these other names which came to be defined by people using the internet as opposed to the traditional coinage by critics: vaporwave, witch house, seapunk, etc.

But it's this depth of history which will, in my view at least, save it from any kind of dissolution into a trend, as the original, 'foundational' work stands as a canon to be drawn from in the way someone might look to the body of the classical world or old jazz if they were to want to produce something that references and aims at joining those categories. In which case, all subsequent works of 'dungeon synth', though being new, original compositions, derive their style from something historical to an extent. And in this way it differs greatly from vaporwave in particular, which seems to aim at presenting itself as if it draws from the past, yet in fact does nothing more than regurgitate it in a borrowed form, little differentiated from the source beyond facile manipulation and processing. Therefore, dungeon synth, by relying on the existing nature of its mode of creation (that being one of quite deeply considered composition and production aesthetics), can circumvent the mass influx of poor, unimaginative pieces, as there is obviously a higher barrier to entry, and the qualification of meeting criteria long set by the progenitors in a seemingly bygone age, an immutability which the 'new' new genres do not share, as they form around a fluctuating classification, not one whose parameters are pre-defined.

Hope this makes some sense. I may have more to add, or some clarifications to make at a later date. Just wanted to juggle these thoughts out onto the keyboard before i forgot them...


Creaking timbers and dank stone walls to you all.

[thekeeper]

Best thing I've heard in a while:
hvrfcentralcommand.bandcamp.com/album/sewercity



A lot of dungeoneers might enjoy this

[chaucerianmyth]

Aug 28, 2017 12:36:09 GMT -5 thekeeper said:

Best thing I've heard in a while:
hvrfcentralcommand.bandcamp.com/album/sewercity



A lot of dungeoneers might enjoy this

Yeah, this is cool as hell.

[thekeeper]

chaucerianmyth , it does a really good job at putting you in a different place. It may sound like sonic bombardment at times, gunshots and sirens, steam escaping, metal clanging, but it all meshes into one sludgy subterranean alternative world. I think this is a good example of something that shares a similar escapist spirit with DS, creating something immersive and starkly different to our current lived reality. Sewer City exists while you're listening.

Speaking of the vapor connection, this DS split album was put out by two vapor artists (on tape, even):
aurawire.bandcamp.com/album/once-through-an-ancient-archway

I'm not surprised that vapor artists can capture the fantastical components of escape that DS lives off of. Great cover art, varied and interesting, instrumentation, not a Mortiis facsimile, solid release. I'll probably pick the tape up. I haven't heard of Mythril Spectre before (I think I read it's a new DS project of some vapor artist), but Paths has been around. I have a tape of his that's recontextualized desert rock kind of stuff. Mythril Spectre's side is super weird with the voice. I'm willing to be most DS listeners will hate that digital-aspect of the vocals, but it kind of fits in the otherworldly sense even if its not 'ancient' or whatever.

[dungeonsnake]

Well, I only really came to Vaporwave in 2015 or 2014, when it was really blowing up. I was turned onto it through the "Chilledcow" youtube channel, which I highly recommend for everyone. Although, really I think the seeds were laid for me by the old Adult Swim interstitial sequences that would often have similar music, back in the early/mid 00's.  I'm not really sure that most of the music on there could even be classified as "vaporwave", it classifies its own aesthetic as "lofi hip hop", but that doesn't seem entirely accurate either. I've also heard it described as "chillhop", among other things. I really like it, the mood and modality reminds me of Dungeon Synth a lot. Recreating obsolete sounds to evoke a mood, often one tied to nostalgia. Dungeon Synth is more for late at night, reading Clark Ashton Smith or Lovecraft in the pitch dark. Chillhop is more for doing chores, browsing the web or as background when with friends. It seems to create a languid, easy mood in everyone. Anyway, vaporwave and chillhop/lofi beats/etc seem to have a lot of cross-pollination, or may even be considered subgenres of one another. Like I said, I'm a neophyte to the genre so maybe somebody with more experience points can clarify. I see no dissonance in enjoying both Dungeon Synth and Vaporwave, I think they're actually both pretty similar. I don't really buy the "cynicism vs idealism" argument, I don't think this genre of music is inherently cynical, I think most of it comes from a place of genuine appreciation - although probably more willing to dabble in irony than most dungeon synth artists.


here's the Chilledcow channel, if anybody isn't familiar:
www.youtube.com/channel/UCSJ4gkVC6NrvII8umztf0Ow

and here's a playlist I put together of my favorite tracks that I heard in 2017, mostly from that channel:
www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLsbTfq0lWPBt5erPlwDoShb7aNwP_RJyu

[Båvingr]

Sept 15, 2017 9:54:53 GMT -5 thekeeper said:

chaucerianmyth , it does a really good job at putting you in a different place. It may sound like sonic bombardment at times, gunshots and sirens, steam escaping, metal clanging, but it all meshes into one sludgy subterranean alternative world. I think this is a good example of something that shares a similar escapist spirit with DS, creating something immersive and starkly different to our current lived reality. Sewer City exists while you're listening.

Speaking of the vapor connection, this DS split album was put out by two vapor artists (on tape, even):
aurawire.bandcamp.com/album/once-through-an-ancient-archway

I'm not surprised that vapor artists can capture the fantastical components of escape that DS lives off of. Great cover art, varied and interesting, instrumentation, not a Mortiis facsimile, solid release. I'll probably pick the tape up. I haven't heard of Mythril Spectre before (I think I read it's a new DS project of some vapor artist), but Paths has been around. I have a tape of his that's recontextualized desert rock kind of stuff. Mythril Spectre's side is super weird with the voice. I'm willing to be most DS listeners will hate that digital-aspect of the vocals, but it kind of fits in the otherworldly sense even if its not 'ancient' or whatever.

I've been checking out some of the vaporwave albums of P A T H S (AKA Paths of the Eternal) and this one really stood out:

pathsto.bandcamp.com/album/g-r-o-v-e

heavy new age vibes.