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Post by nebulosa on Jul 17, 2018 19:24:30 GMT -5
I wanted to see some discussion about a sub-genre of dungeon synth labelled as dungeon folk! The first time I saw this tag was via the dungeon folk chart created last year by thekeeper. More recently, I saw this tag used by Ridge Dweller to describe their music, which created a bit of a stir. Besides those listed in the aforementioned dungeon folk chart, I know Rabor uses many different folk instruments, Nahadoth makes some use of the accordion, Ridge Dweller makes heavy use of acoustic instruments, and I myself have made use of the bowed psaltery and jaw harp in my last two releases. There are a handful of artists that could fit into this tag. Are there any other artists that I'm leaving out here? What folk instruments do you think would work well along with dungeon synth? Besides the use of folk instruments, what other elements do you think are important for the creation of dungeon folk? Are the use of folk instruments even imperative for the creation of dungeon folk? In what direction do you see this sub-genre journeying towards in the future?
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Post by wyverngarden on Jul 17, 2018 19:43:40 GMT -5
Maybe my stuff (still far from ready) will fit in here. Or not. Maybe eventually, or maybe I just have to realize I'm doing some ~post-ds~ or non-DS thing. [and I don't want to be "post"!!!] I do not use acoustic instruments though, mostly analogue synths, something like Robin Crutchfield's early Dark Day albums (e.g. Window) are somewhat indicative (and I do hear a strong folk sensibility peeking through this).
To get more on topic, the direction of Fief III is also very important here.
But i do mix it with more neofolk-sounding aspects (or at least with a nod to The Moon Lay Hidden... even though this isn't really neofolk).
I think we first need to see a convergence of dungeon synth and neofolk, then something like what I'm doing would make sense.
I DO think there's a place for an artist who uses 100% folk sample libraries. Like the Ilya Efimov guitar libraries or some of the Tarilonte ones (Era, Forest Kingdom). The idea of these obviously synthetic approaches trying to re-create a folk sensibility is right now far more interesting (and arguably, in line with the DS-aesthetic) than simply playing acoustic instruments on top of the usual DS sounds.
Somewhat contradicting this, I really do like Ridge Dweller, I like how it came out of nowhere really. It's a quite viable sound.
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Post by poppet108 on Jul 18, 2018 21:32:30 GMT -5
I will sometimes dabble into folk, usually with flutes or guitar samples. My most recent album, Infernally, I wander is very much Dungeon Folk and has received some good reviews. poppetblackmetal.bandcamp.com/album/infernally-i-wanderIn some of my weirder albums, I will incorporate the saxophone, but generally my sound library is limited, so I have to stick with mainly synths and a few other instruments. This allows me to be creative. On the album I mentioned, there are only two instruments, a guitar and a flute and this adds to both cohesion, and a medievally sound, more medieval than my other stuff at least.
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Post by nebulosa on Jul 23, 2018 10:07:19 GMT -5
wyverngarden , I would be interested in hearing more artists use a 100% folk instrument sample library as well. Like you pointed out, Fief is one example that makes heavy use of synthesized folk instruments. I think the Idyllic Synth thread dips into this topic a bit as well. However, I am also very much interested in dungeon synth that also incorporates acoustic instruments, and feel only the surface has been scratched in this regard. poppet108 , I'll definitely check out this album of yours that you recommended! This kind of experimentation with other instruments I think is an exciting avenue for dungeon synth to explore. You pointed out the guitar and flute create more of a medieval sound, which I think is interesting. Many artists go for this sound with only synths, and many times it is effective, but there is definitely a kind of genuineness that I think can only be achieved with acoustic instruments.
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Post by Naginah on Jul 23, 2018 12:20:02 GMT -5
I think Sombre Arcane has a certain connection, to dungeon folk because of the heavy use of the Kantele but I wouldnt say we are overtly so. Would you agree nebulosa ?
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Tyrannus
Verified Account
Knowledge is Night
Posts: 806
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Post by Tyrannus on Jul 23, 2018 13:05:18 GMT -5
I think Sombre Arcane has a certain connection, to dungeon folk because of the heavy use of the Kantele but I wouldnt say we are overtly so. Would you agree nebulosa ? I could see that for sure
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Post by nebulosa on Jul 23, 2018 16:24:18 GMT -5
I think Sombre Arcane has a certain connection, to dungeon folk because of the heavy use of the Kantele but I wouldnt say we are overtly so. Would you agree nebulosa ? I would absolutely agree, I think Sombre Arcane definitely fits under the dungeon folk tag! The kantele is such a neat instrument. I had the pleasure of seeing Sombre Arcane at the Northeast Dungeon Siege a few months ago: great presentation, great music, and the live kantele performance was top-notch! I think other zithers would definitely work well in dungeon synth too. It would be neat to hear a project utilize a dulcimer in their recording.
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Post by wyverngarden on Jul 24, 2018 11:26:02 GMT -5
wyverngarden , I would be interested in hearing more artists use a 100% folk instrument sample library as well. Like you pointed out, Fief is one example that makes heavy use of synthesized folk instruments. I think the Idyllic Synth thread dips into this topic a bit as well. However, I am also very much interested in dungeon synth that also incorporates acoustic instruments, and feel only the surface has been scratched in this regard. poppet108 , I'll definitely check out this album of yours that you recommended! This kind of experimentation with other instruments I think is an exciting avenue for dungeon synth to explore. You pointed out the guitar and flute create more of a medieval sound, which I think is interesting. Many artists go for this sound with only synths, and many times it is effective, but there is definitely a kind of genuineness that I think can only be achieved with acoustic instruments. Agreed, I think there are a number of different approaches. I'd like to see them all actually. Including Ridge Dweller. They can all battle it out and one may come to dominate, or they could all just coexist. If I had to wager, I'd think the "neo-chamber" thing being discussed right now in Misc. seems like it may have some of the best potential for crossover, perhaps more than neofolk, since it came from metal. I'd gladly support this approach even though it puts my particular crossover interests re: psych folk, wyrd folk, neofolk, in the minority. Neo-chamber folk has a more natural affinity with DS. But i'd like to defend the person armed only with a fifteen-year old PC, preferably cracked SW and sample library, whose only influences are fantasy movie soundtracks, CRPG etc. and yet who harnesses this very technically limited medium somehow to conjure the old tales and indeed bring forth the old gods. There is something very affecting and genuine about this. For years this entire approach was considered something you'd never do, yet DS showed that very compelling and indeed serious music can result. In 1994, I had a (borrowed) Yamaha SY-85, with the built-in sequencer, I was using it as a sketchpad for an instrumental neoclassical/neofolk project, where I would then learn to play guitar and flesh out into "real songs" , I played it for a number of people who told me rather, I should start writing game soundtracks. That even there was such a person in LA that I should contact, and so on. I wonder if at that time I was actually creating dungeon synth or dungeon folk. But I never took it seriously as something that should be released, because I was hung up on the idea of "real instruments". On the other hand I just simply hated guitar, I still don't play today in fact. I had a much better affinity for keyboards and put all of the attention into writing the songs. I didn't know yet about Mortiis or Cernunnos woods at the time, except possibly as "names" in mailorder catalogs, I had one CMI release, I think Raison D'etre and didn't like it at all, and all CDs cost $20-25 then when my share of the rent was under $200/mo, which I still struggled to pay, and I was a stupid completist/collector of some bands so I didn't pay much attention to anything else on the label. But I now see/appreciate the tremendous courage of these artists even to accept what they did as music. And it seems that even Mortiis hated his own early music until recently. So that is why I think it's so vital to extend the DS approach further into folk music proper, basically the last frontier -- and then, to not just take advantage of sample libraries, but stuff like AI and semi-automated composition, like what the Google Magenta people are working on, basically whatever's at hand and accessible at the moment. Also, the economics, living space or practice space is at a tremendous premium these days, which means if you have a laptop w/headphones or even just a phone, it can be the most direct and immediate path to music, so if people figure out how to do this meaningfully it can be liberating, I mean squatters can do this. At the other extreme there are $600K guitars on Reverb, for people wanting to live out some fantasy of authenticity. Really, anything can be genuine if you have a genuine relationship with the instrument, if you learn it like the back of your hand and have a genuine response to the sound. This could be a guitar or a laptop with only the Kontakt factory library. I spent the weekend listening to this very old postpunk thing, Rosa Yemen, where it's obvious the musicians don't know or don't care how to play guitar in a traditional way, and yet it's one of the most genuine things ever recorded, it says more in five seconds than most artists do in a lifetime. But that's another story.
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Post by stormcrow on Jul 27, 2018 12:09:32 GMT -5
Kenosis with his flutes is a really good example of "dungeon folk". I would love to hear some more music from Ridge Dweller... but without hurry. I do not like too much output, especially from these "one of a kind" artists.
In the "Alpestre" split album (https://dungeonit.bandcamp.com) , one track by Burgen features a brief flute intervention, and one track by Il Generale Inverno is built on acoustic guitar patterns.
Dalina also uses folkish sounds in his "Cold Mysteries" album.... a Russian gusli sample, maybe?
I used a well known medieval/renaissance clichè on the track "The Evil Reigns..." (from "The Forgotten Tomb of Yshnak" album) that features acoustic guitar and synthesized flute.
...I will let you know if something else comes to my mind....
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ridgedweller
Peasant
Ridge Dweller / Silent Cabin / Wine Drinkers - Owner of the Lahja label.
Posts: 19
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Post by ridgedweller on Jul 30, 2018 19:40:55 GMT -5
Great discussion here. On the topic of instruments, I'd like to hear acoustic guitar or upright/grand piano, not simply synthesized ones. I myself am limited to only a few acoustic instruments aside from the guitar, but I will try to incorporate them into my music in the future.
Also, currently listening to your newest album Nebulosa, and enjoying it quite a lot.
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Post by AndruJorj on Aug 2, 2018 12:18:47 GMT -5
Aufhocker - Upon The Throne Of Eternity aufhocker.bandcamp.com/album/upon-the-throne-of-eternityThis album is a fusion of Dungeon Synth and folk music. I tagged it as Neofolk as well as Dungeon Synth, but perhaps the term Dungeon Folk could be added as a descriptor of the album because it would be slightly more specific. Along with the synthesizers I played whilst recording this album, the record features acoustic guitars, wind instruments, and acoustic drums. I may be playing the accordion on one song. I cannot recall. I would like to hear all of your opinions about how you feel regarding the fusion of these two genres. And a side question: Is Dungeon Synth with acoustic instruments still Dungeon Synth? How many acoustic instruments can there be before it is no longer Dungeon Synth?
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Post by nebulosa on Aug 2, 2018 15:05:03 GMT -5
wyverngarden , I would be interested in hearing more artists use a 100% folk instrument sample library as well. Like you pointed out, Fief is one example that makes heavy use of synthesized folk instruments. I think the Idyllic Synth thread dips into this topic a bit as well. However, I am also very much interested in dungeon synth that also incorporates acoustic instruments, and feel only the surface has been scratched in this regard. poppet108 , I'll definitely check out this album of yours that you recommended! This kind of experimentation with other instruments I think is an exciting avenue for dungeon synth to explore. You pointed out the guitar and flute create more of a medieval sound, which I think is interesting. Many artists go for this sound with only synths, and many times it is effective, but there is definitely a kind of genuineness that I think can only be achieved with acoustic instruments. Agreed, I think there are a number of different approaches. I'd like to see them all actually. Including Ridge Dweller. They can all battle it out and one may come to dominate, or they could all just coexist. If I had to wager, I'd think the "neo-chamber" thing being discussed right now in Misc. seems like it may have some of the best potential for crossover, perhaps more than neofolk, since it came from metal. I'd gladly support this approach even though it puts my particular crossover interests re: psych folk, wyrd folk, neofolk, in the minority. Neo-chamber folk has a more natural affinity with DS. But i'd like to defend the person armed only with a fifteen-year old PC, preferably cracked SW and sample library, whose only influences are fantasy movie soundtracks, CRPG etc. and yet who harnesses this very technically limited medium somehow to conjure the old tales and indeed bring forth the old gods. There is something very affecting and genuine about this. For years this entire approach was considered something you'd never do, yet DS showed that very compelling and indeed serious music can result. In 1994, I had a (borrowed) Yamaha SY-85, with the built-in sequencer, I was using it as a sketchpad for an instrumental neoclassical/neofolk project, where I would then learn to play guitar and flesh out into "real songs" , I played it for a number of people who told me rather, I should start writing game soundtracks. That even there was such a person in LA that I should contact, and so on. I wonder if at that time I was actually creating dungeon synth or dungeon folk. But I never took it seriously as something that should be released, because I was hung up on the idea of "real instruments". On the other hand I just simply hated guitar, I still don't play today in fact. I had a much better affinity for keyboards and put all of the attention into writing the songs. I didn't know yet about Mortiis or Cernunnos woods at the time, except possibly as "names" in mailorder catalogs, I had one CMI release, I think Raison D'etre and didn't like it at all, and all CDs cost $20-25 then when my share of the rent was under $200/mo, which I still struggled to pay, and I was a stupid completist/collector of some bands so I didn't pay much attention to anything else on the label. But I now see/appreciate the tremendous courage of these artists even to accept what they did as music. And it seems that even Mortiis hated his own early music until recently. So that is why I think it's so vital to extend the DS approach further into folk music proper, basically the last frontier -- and then, to not just take advantage of sample libraries, but stuff like AI and semi-automated composition, like what the Google Magenta people are working on, basically whatever's at hand and accessible at the moment. Also, the economics, living space or practice space is at a tremendous premium these days, which means if you have a laptop w/headphones or even just a phone, it can be the most direct and immediate path to music, so if people figure out how to do this meaningfully it can be liberating, I mean squatters can do this. At the other extreme there are $600K guitars on Reverb, for people wanting to live out some fantasy of authenticity. Really, anything can be genuine if you have a genuine relationship with the instrument, if you learn it like the back of your hand and have a genuine response to the sound. This could be a guitar or a laptop with only the Kontakt factory library. I spent the weekend listening to this very old postpunk thing, Rosa Yemen, where it's obvious the musicians don't know or don't care how to play guitar in a traditional way, and yet it's one of the most genuine things ever recorded, it says more in five seconds than most artists do in a lifetime. But that's another story. Yeah, I definitely agree that piece of music can be genuine regardless of what instruments were used or how it was recorded. No need to overthink how music will be perceived. There's still a lot of exploration to be done in terms of the blending of folk and dungeon synth, and I'm excited to hear where it may go in the future. I am pretty curious to hear what you were recording in in 1994 as well. Also, thanks for pointing out that neo-chamber thread, I probably would not have found that for a while. This forum has grown quite a bit, which is exciting! Great discussion here. On the topic of instruments, I'd like to hear acoustic guitar or upright/grand piano, not simply synthesized ones. I myself am limited to only a few acoustic instruments aside from the guitar, but I will try to incorporate them into my music in the future. Also, currently listening to your newest album Nebulosa, and enjoying it quite a lot. Thanks, much appreciated! I'm looking forward to hearing some new Ridge Dweller material. Aufhocker - Upon The Throne Of Eternity aufhocker.bandcamp.com/album/upon-the-throne-of-eternityThis album is a fusion of Dungeon Synth and folk music. I tagged it as Neofolk as well as Dungeon Synth, but perhaps the term Dungeon Folk could be added as a descriptor of the album because it would be slightly more specific. Along with the synthesizers I played whilst recording this album, the record features acoustic guitars, wind instruments, and acoustic drums. I may be playing the accordion on one song. I cannot recall. I would like to hear all of your opinions about how you feel regarding the fusion of these two genres. And a side question: Is Dungeon Synth with acoustic instruments still Dungeon Synth? How many acoustic instruments can there be before it is no longer Dungeon Synth? Just started listening to this, and it's pretty interesting so far. Very weird, eerie atmosphere so far, which the acoustic instruments certainly enhance. That's an interesting question too. I'm inclined to say dungeon synth should predominantly, if not exclusively, utilize synths. Maybe when more acoustic instrumentation is involved and there's more deviation from classic dungeon synth themes and imagery, that's when other descriptive tags like dungeon folk can be utilized.
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Post by stormcrow on Aug 3, 2018 0:36:56 GMT -5
And a side question: Is Dungeon Synth with acoustic instruments still Dungeon Synth? How many acoustic instruments can there be before it is no longer Dungeon Synth? if I remember well, there already was a topic about this...
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