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Post by Sláine on Jul 26, 2018 16:54:13 GMT -5
Not looking to throw food around here, just wanted to know.
In the past, some artists have denounced the term dungeon synth and generally left the scene. My feelings are, in whole honesty, to preserve it as best we can. Now, some people have shown great interest in protecting the scene, but in practice it has shown to be a cause of disinterest to certain artists.
Do you think it is important to hold on to this or do you not care? I acknowlege one might not care and just make music but I genuinely feel that the scene is unique and special that in tradition or tribute to the origins of the genre, we can continue it as much as we can, with innovation but also not shying away from being traditional.
TLDR: Opinion on preservation of the scene and genre/How much you are willing to invest into it
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Tyrannus
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Post by Tyrannus on Jul 26, 2018 17:53:39 GMT -5
Well I’m a big fan of the music but I don’t really think the “scene” matters that much. I’ll post on here and check some stuff on Facebook but really the community doesn’t matter at all. There are a couple modern artists I’ll keep up with but yeah I’ve really lost interest in any kind of social aspect and with keeping up with the genre as some kind of unified whole
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Post by Sláine on Jul 26, 2018 19:13:41 GMT -5
Well I’m a big fan of the music but I don’t really think the “scene” matters that much. I’ll post on here and check some stuff on Facebook but really the community doesn’t matter at all. There are a couple modern artists I’ll keep up with but yeah I’ve really lost interest in any kind of social aspect and with keeping up with the genre as some kind of unified whole I agree about the scene but its a bonus. I can discuss something so niche with like minded people about a great style of music and I find great music. The rules and such aren't necessary though which is a downside. However, as Fenriz said before about black metal, something about it not being too stern or thriving for anything but to do it out of tradition and tribute, but of course in your own way.
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Post by thekeeper on Jul 26, 2018 21:21:53 GMT -5
Good topic. I think it's important to identify our terms here. What do we mean when we say 'preserve the scene'? To me this could mean a few things, but the main two would be either preserving the sense of community that has been built among our centralized communication platforms (specifically the main FB group and this forum), or it could mean keeping genre alive (but since there are so few individual communities, it's all kind of 'the scene'). VK group pretty much resides in its own sphere with more crossover of the Russian scene into FB than the other way around, so I've left them out of these definitions, but no slight to their community whatsoever, they're responsible for a lot of the genre's longevity since the early online days.
If we'd want to preserve the online community, we'd have to identify the patterns and weaknesses of other genres that made waves online but fizzled out. I think online community preservation has to include a.) some kind of barrier of entry (this is quite complicated), but conversely b.) exposure to draw people who can breach the barrier and integrate. I think the entry barrier for DS exists in its musical form, generally obscure and often interpreted as cheesy. I don't have any interest on making the genre look good in a public way, I enjoy the general outsider feel and our circulation of tapes amongst each other. I think the genre gets enough exposure as it is, so I think everything's in a generally good place at the moment.
A weakness in the online community might be its centralization onto very few platforms, consolidating activity into 1-3 select places, leaving anyone who may not like the function or requirements of these platforms fairly left out of the social aspect of things, also allowing an entire artistic genre to equate to a small number of internet groups probably isn't the best idea. However, given the size of the online DS listener population, we probably don't need much else as far as places to gather before things start getting too thinned out and activity stifles. So if we'd want to preserve the online communities, I don't think there's a whole lot to be done. This is really just for very broad DS information, too. There are a number of individual scenes, mostly local ones, that are active on their own terms yet contribute great music and aren't present in our typical online gathering places. Voldsom doesn't participate in any of the present online platforms yet they put out some of the best DS in the scene, in my opinion. The Shadow Kingdom is generally isolated to the Netherlands and it more active in the raw bm scene than the DS scene, but they've put out some contemporary classics that have inspired a lot of people. There's more of course, but you get what I'm saying. Local scenes have the benefit of being far smaller and communal, so online communities have to replicate a sense of locality online through the two points I mentioned above. In this genre's case, that's easy enough.
Personally, I enjoy my level of participation in the scene and I like the smaller size of things, but I'm not concerned about preserving it. I'm a forum admin because I like the communication format of forums (really, I'm not a big on post-2007 internet at all. I mean, my label site is on a geocities platform clone). I highly doubt the genre could die off since the people involved in our major online platforms are typically quite genuine and supportive of each other. People are becoming more constructively critical too instead of plainly positive without any input other than "great job! hails!", so that communication issue is lessening. I don't think the genre needs deliberate preservation since it's established enough to survive on its own. We don't need to try and convince people of anything. We have artists doing weird things and pushing boundaries, artists sticking to the old sounds and maintaining definitions, and artists in between who are balancing the two. Political stuff is typically brushed off or ignored and is quite the thematic minority. Aesthetic-hype artists are mostly forgotten about as well. I think those who have cut ties with the genre did so for reasons of identity, perhaps identifying too personally with the genre itself and then once things start to fluctuate in its image or assumptions, cutting off from the term and and reclassifying oneself is simpler than the possibilities of being interpreted 'wrongly'. As I've said in the past, those who abandoned the term 'dungeon synth' didn't actually stop making 'dungeon synth', I think it just stemmed from a dissatisfaction with 'dungeon synth' becoming somewhat broad. I don't see why someone would 'detract from the genre' while making the same music for reasons other than those of identity. Maybe I'm wrong.
For those that care to preserve things, I don't think there's anything that needs to be done. Forcing positivity for 'scene morale' or whatever is just disingenuous. Overt gatekeeping takes the fun away. And DS isn't a fragile thing (at least not as much as when we were figuring out just what DS even means). If one online platform dissolves, it was probably destined to dissolve, and one or more new social outlets will generate and take its place and those who were in it for something other than the music itself will leave through the transitional entropy. I'll still talk to people on my own, make music on my own terms. I'm not concerned.
tl;dr: Have fun, do whatever, be genuine, maybe talk to people through email or something
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Post by Carl Shoemaker on Jul 26, 2018 22:02:01 GMT -5
I guess I need to start focusing on more detailed compliments, not just "sounds great! hails!"
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Post by thekeeper on Jul 26, 2018 22:25:00 GMT -5
I guess I need to start focusing on more detailed compliments, not just "sounds great! hails!" Aha, well I have no qualms with that in itself. Sometimes that might just be what there is to say. I suppose what I was getting at is encouraging reflection and honesty, just being genuine and not being positive only for the sake of maintaining an atmosphere.
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Post by Sláine on Jul 27, 2018 5:03:24 GMT -5
Good topic. I think it's important to identify our terms here. What do we mean when we say 'preserve the scene'? To me this could mean a few things, but the main two would be either preserving the sense of community that has been built among our centralized communication platforms (specifically the main FB group and this forum), or it could mean keeping genre alive (but since there are so few individual communities, it's all kind of 'the scene'). VK group pretty much resides in its own sphere with more crossover of the Russian scene into FB than the other way around, so I've left them out of these definitions, but no slight to their community whatsoever, they're responsible for a lot of the genre's longevity since the early online days. If we'd want to preserve the online community, we'd have to identify the patterns and weaknesses of other genres that made waves online but fizzled out. I think online community preservation has to include a.) some kind of barrier of entry (this is quite complicated), but conversely b.) exposure to draw people who can breach the barrier and integrate. I think the entry barrier for DS exists in its musical form, generally obscure and often interpreted as cheesy. I don't have any interest on making the genre look good in a public way, I enjoy the general outsider feel and our circulation of tapes amongst each other. I think the genre gets enough exposure as it is, so I think everything's in a generally good place at the moment. A weakness in the online community might be its centralization onto very few platforms, consolidating activity into 1-3 select places, leaving anyone who may not like the function or requirements of these platforms fairly left out of the social aspect of things, also allowing an entire artistic genre to equate to a small number of internet groups probably isn't the best idea. However, given the size of the online DS listener population, we probably don't need much else as far as places to gather before things start getting too thinned out and activity stifles. So if we'd want to preserve the online communities, I don't think there's a whole lot to be done. This is really just for very broad DS information, too. There are a number of individual scenes, mostly local ones, that are active on their own terms yet contribute great music and aren't present in our typical online gathering places. Voldsom doesn't participate in any of the present online platforms yet they put out some of the best DS in the scene, in my opinion. The Shadow Kingdom is generally isolated to the Netherlands and it more active in the raw bm scene than the DS scene, but they've put out some contemporary classics that have inspired a lot of people. There's more of course, but you get what I'm saying. Local scenes have the benefit of being far smaller and communal, so online communities have to replicate a sense of locality online through the two points I mentioned above. In this genre's case, that's easy enough. Personally, I enjoy my level of participation in the scene and I like the smaller size of things, but I'm not concerned about preserving it. I'm a forum admin because I like the communication format of forums (really, I'm not a big on post-2007 internet at all. I mean, my label site is on a geocities platform clone). I highly doubt the genre could die off since the people involved in our major online platforms are typically quite genuine and supportive of each other. People are becoming more constructively critical too instead of plainly positive without any input other than "great job! hails!", so that communication issue is lessening. I don't think the genre needs deliberate preservation since it's established enough to survive on its own. We don't need to try and convince people of anything. We have artists doing weird things and pushing boundaries, artists sticking to the old sounds and maintaining definitions, and artists in between who are balancing the two. Political stuff is typically brushed off or ignored and is quite the thematic minority. Aesthetic-hype artists are mostly forgotten about as well. I think those who have cut ties with the genre did so for reasons of identity, perhaps identifying too personally with the genre itself and then once things start to fluctuate in its image or assumptions, cutting off from the term and and reclassifying oneself is simpler than the possibilities of being interpreted 'wrongly'. As I've said in the past, those who abandoned the term 'dungeon synth' didn't actually stop making 'dungeon synth', I think it just stemmed from a dissatisfaction with 'dungeon synth' becoming somewhat broad. I don't see why someone would 'detract from the genre' while making the same music for reasons other than those of identity. Maybe I'm wrong. For those that care to preserve things, I don't think there's anything that needs to be done. Forcing positivity for 'scene morale' or whatever is just disingenuous. Overt gatekeeping takes the fun away. And DS isn't a fragile thing (at least not as much as when we were figuring out just what DS even means). If one online platform dissolves, it was probably destined to dissolve, and one or more new social outlets will generate and take its place and those who were in it for something other than the music itself will leave through the transitional entropy. I'll still talk to people on my own, make music on my own terms. I'm not concerned. tl;dr: Have fun, do whatever, be genuine, maybe talk to people through email or something Definitely a good post here. I can agree with most of it. For me, preservation is not letting something die because I have a genuine love for it, and I know I can keep listening and making but watching people fade away from something special would be a shame. Sounds cheesy. I agree, there is no need for disingenuous positivity. Yes, be civil and courteous but I've noticed now, the people who used to say things like "great stuff, hails" used to comment on my work when I was new. It helped me want to make more. The problem there is you can get an influx of people who make low art to great credit. That can be attractive. They eventually abandon it. Although, I dont think of it as an internet meme genre, but it certainly uses the internet to great advantage. I think the attitude of not caring (to an extent) is an act of preservation as it allows the genre to settle and fluctuate itself with a healthy amount of input. Naturally, people will stop for whatever reason, real life and time kicks in. While not mandatory, it would be nice to have a wave of people coming in. I probably sound too serious though. In honesty, I think the actions of certain people to protect the scene has been ironic and backfired. The facebook group is extremely handy but imagine joining first time to a load of rules and implementation. You'd be inclined to say "fuck this".
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Post by thekeeper on Jul 27, 2018 10:47:52 GMT -5
I agree, there is no need for disingenuous positivity. Yes, be civil and courteous but I've noticed now, the people who used to say things like "great stuff, hails" used to comment on my work when I was new. It helped me want to make more. The problem there is you can get an influx of people who make low art to great credit. That can be attractive. They eventually abandon it. Although, I dont think of it as an internet meme genre, but it certainly uses the internet to great advantage. I agree with your point. Like I said above, these kinds of simple positive comments aren't an issue on their own, it just requires a balance of different types of encouragement and feedback for newcomers. "Great stuff, hails" serves a certain purpose just as more detailed constructive criticism serves its purpose, which is why I'm not typically the type to tell people what they should do or say. Even "this sucks, I know you can do better" serves a purpose. I try not to think of 'the scene', rather the individuals. Thinking too much of 'the scene' tips things in directions that I feel are more detrimental than helpful, such as forced positivity or ineffectual elitism.
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Post by stormcrow on Jul 27, 2018 11:49:06 GMT -5
I guess I need to start focusing on more detailed compliments, not just "sounds great! hails!" that's what I always try to do, and it's a very good purpose. Also, I love to leave comments on artists BC pages when I'm purchasing their stuff, trying to focus and explain every point of interest in a few words. And it would be a good thing to see more of those comments on BC, since VERY FEW buyers use to leave them. I think detailed comments (positive or negative) are always useful and challenging at the same time.
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Tyrannus
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Knowledge is Night
Posts: 806
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Post by Tyrannus on Jul 27, 2018 12:04:14 GMT -5
I agree, there is no need for disingenuous positivity. Yes, be civil and courteous but I've noticed now, the people who used to say things like "great stuff, hails" used to comment on my work when I was new. It helped me want to make more. The problem there is you can get an influx of people who make low art to great credit. That can be attractive. They eventually abandon it. Although, I dont think of it as an internet meme genre, but it certainly uses the internet to great advantage. I agree with your point. Like I said above, these kinds of simple positive comments aren't an issue on their own, it just requires a balance of different types of encouragement and feedback for newcomers. "Great stuff, hails" serves a certain purpose just as more detailed constructive criticism serves its purpose, which is why I'm not typically the type to tell people what they should do or say. Even "this sucks, I know you can do better" serves a purpose. I try not to think of 'the scene', rather the individuals. Thinking too much of 'the scene' tips things in directions that I feel are more detrimental than helpful, such as forced positivity or ineffectual elitism. Yeah I agree that focusing on individual people is better. But still I think some people seem to use DS to "make friends" or something but I dunno I don't think that's ultimately a super rewarding venture. Personally I find online friends sorta hard to keep up with after time but it depends. I think networking is certainly useful though
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Post by Sláine on Jul 27, 2018 12:08:09 GMT -5
I agree with your point. Like I said above, these kinds of simple positive comments aren't an issue on their own, it just requires a balance of different types of encouragement and feedback for newcomers. "Great stuff, hails" serves a certain purpose just as more detailed constructive criticism serves its purpose, which is why I'm not typically the type to tell people what they should do or say. Even "this sucks, I know you can do better" serves a purpose. I try not to think of 'the scene', rather the individuals. Thinking too much of 'the scene' tips things in directions that I feel are more detrimental than helpful, such as forced positivity or ineffectual elitism. Yeah I agree that focusing on individual people is better. But still I think some people seem to use DS to "make friends" or something but I dunno I don't think that's ultimately a super rewarding venture. Personally I find online friends sorta hard to keep up with after time but it depends. I think networking is certainly useful though Yeah it's a bonus for me to get friends out of it, or just people who mutually respect you and that you can discuss things, like this very forum. But the spoonfeeding can be a downfall.
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Post by chaucerianmyth on Jul 28, 2018 20:58:07 GMT -5
Honestly the scene right now, which I used to love, has left me very much disenchanted and disillusioned. I'd almost rather it just go away at this point, it's so ridiculous. That being said, there are people in the scene I enjoy, and I think maybe it would be for the best if DS just died down a little bit socially while still growing musically.
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Post by Sláine on Jul 28, 2018 21:01:30 GMT -5
Honestly the scene right now, which I used to love, has left me very much disenchanted and disillusioned. I'd almost rather it just go away at this point, it's so ridiculous. That being said, there are people in the scene I enjoy, and I think maybe it would be for the best if DS just died down a little bit socially while still growing musically. 100%, hence why I enjoy this forum more now. Its a bit less wild and theres better conversations going on. Although, its quite obvious what the elephant in the room is... I use scene term really, the current one has gotten out of control for definite. I agree leaving it grow musically.
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Post by Sláine on Jul 28, 2018 21:02:13 GMT -5
Honestly the scene right now, which I used to love, has left me very much disenchanted and disillusioned. I'd almost rather it just go away at this point, it's so ridiculous. That being said, there are people in the scene I enjoy, and I think maybe it would be for the best if DS just died down a little bit socially while still growing musically. Although, perhaps it only takes on release/event/thing to spark back, at least my, enthusiasm. Although I haven't given up totally yet.
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Tyrannus
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Post by Tyrannus on Jul 28, 2018 21:05:21 GMT -5
Honestly the scene right now, which I used to love, has left me very much disenchanted and disillusioned. I'd almost rather it just go away at this point, it's so ridiculous. That being said, there are people in the scene I enjoy, and I think maybe it would be for the best if DS just died down a little bit socially while still growing musically. Yeah the social aspect of DS was largely a failed experiment I feel like...some people just feed off drama and want to stir things up whenever possible EDIT: that being said I still like these forums, and feel like much better discussion goes on here. But having it on Facebook with everyone’s “real selves” participating...I just have had enough of that
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