Getting started in Dungeon Synth as a musician

[DarkAgeProd]

what medium do you use to perform?

- Digital recording in a DAW.
MIDI keyboards (M-Audio Axiom 61 key 1st gen, M-Audio Keystudio 49 key, Acorn Masterkey 49 key). I was able to find a computer shop who had a couple of the old YAMAHA PSR-510 (61 key) keyboards that I used to create the Cernunnos Woods demos and album so I bought them so I can use some of the sounds again in new work.
M-Audio Mobile Pre-USB preamp for plugging in guitars, condenser microphones, monitors, headphones, etc.
Condenser mic & pop shield for recording acoustic sounds & vocals.
Zoom h4 Field recorder, shotgun mic and furry cover for recording out in nature or other places on the go.

software you use to record?

- I have Cakewalk Sonar Pro DAW but I downloaded Reaper recently and I like it better than Sonar which was many times more expensive than Reaper. There are some nice plug ins in Sonar Pro that I used for remastering the old CW music but I don't think it's worth the cost when Reaper appears to do essentially the same things handles most any VST I want to use and not crash as much as Sonar - which is not too often but I don't think I've crashed Reaper yet.

do you do any mastering once you've recorded?

- Yes even with the primitive equipment I recorded with in the 1990s I still tried to get as good of a final mix as possible.

Any particular VST's you prefer?

- Absynth by Native Instruments for creating evolving atmospheres, Korg M1, S-1 Strings, Sforzando soundfont player + soundfonts from online, I have a ton of vsts installed but I maybe like only one or two sounds on a lot of them or they make cool sounds but wouldn't really be useful for most "dungeon synth" or medieval style stuff.

How much have you spent on your setup?

- Not a terrible amount. A nice 64 bit desktop PC with a good amount of RAM, multiple core CPU and good soundcard is gonna be your biggest investment if you want to use some of the heavier CPU drawing (paid) VSTs. I have seen people using laptops but I wouldn't want to risk it. I've already fried one beefy PC with some East West Quantum Leap VST software on a hot summer day (using Symphonic Choirs & Symphonic Orchestra Gold) and I've been too nervous to try reinstalling on the new PC despite how much I paid for those VSTs. I'd suggest that having more CPU & RAM power than you think you'll need is a good thing, and a cool room to work in.

Are there any budget-friendly options for a prospective DS artist?

- After the Computer, DAW and MIDI Keyboard (I got my M-Audio 49 key at a thrift shop for $4.99) you could probably get along with free VSTs from vst4free.com until you feel like upgrading to better sounds and samples.  Some people don't even use a keyboard and just enter notes on the MIDI Piano roll or step sequencer screens in their DAW.


As for inspiration, that's up to you. What inspires me is good artwork or photography that causes me to think of a track title (or titles). From there I try to build on the theme or idea of the track with sounds that could go with the track name or lyrics if I've got some. I've tried "noodling" on the keyboard many times and I might find a neat little chord progression or note sequence I like but I don't ever write a song that way, at least not for Cernunnos Woods.

[mausolei]

For me, it's 4-track all the way. Certain surprises can happen with cassettes bending that adds pitch and dissonance that could never be recreated digitally without sounding forced. It's definitely a labor of love, but by the time I hear the finished product it completely validates my choice to stick with analog. The songs may not sound as sophisticated as they would with updated equipment, but the dusty, archaic atmosphere is what I'm hoping to create.

[andrewwerdna]

I've always wanted to experiment with a 4-track recorder. I imagine the limitations are actually creatively freeing.

[nahadoth]

Jan 6, 2017 1:10:45 GMT -5 andrewwerdna said:

I've always wanted to experiment with a 4-track recorder. I imagine the limitations are actually creatively freeing.

They really can be. Mostly it is motivation to improve your keyboard skills, since you can expand the sound a bit by playing two voices or lines on the same track. But I will say that of all of the stuff I've recorded/released so far, the stuff written on 4-track was given the most focused composition - both of my full lengths so far were written and recorded in about the span of a week on a 4-track (then I waited awhile before importing, editing, and mixing them in a DAW.) There is stuff that I recorded in logic that took me 6-7 months to finish from the point the first notes were recorded. 

[thekeeper]

What medium do you use to perform?
I don't play DS live. I use VSTs through FL Studio typically played on the computer keyboard, a small toy Casio, a couple of old DOD distortion pedals, Digitech whammy pedal. I like having limited equipment, it causes more experimentation. I suppose it would seem like the opposite, having more stuff would mean more capabilities, but too much stuff is overwhelming/stifling to me.

Software you use to record?
I'd recommend Acoustica Mixcraft for editing, arranging, mastering, and recording. I believe it can do some MIDI input stuff as well (possibly even has DAW step sequencing capabilities, honestly I don't know), but it's fantastic for mixing and recording. I've been using it for about 12 years. It's a proprietary paid license program, but, you know...

Sometimes I use Audacity to record music, but I mostly use it to rip tapes. I don't believe anyone dislikes Audacity, honestly, but it's a little choppier editing wise compared to Mixcraft.

Do you do any mastering once you've recorded?
Very little. I might fiddle with some effects on some tracks once everything is together, but that's the extent of it.

Any particular VST's you prefer?
I can't for the life of me remember what they're called. Majken's Chimera is good for ambient noise.

How much have you spent on your setup?
For what I use in DS (amp, pedals, keyboard, not including computer), probably under $250. I have guitars and some other instruments but I don't use them for DS.

Are there any budget-friendly options for a prospective DS artist?
Goodwill toy keyboards, explore free VSTs, LMMS is a free DAW program, Audacity is free, get a little practice amp and mic, don't be afraid of lo-fi. Do whatever, experimentation is fun.

[chaucerianmyth]

Music Theory.

I cannot stress this enough. Learn about chords. Learn about intervals. Learn about scales (you don't even have to memorize them, just know how to use them)!

Years ago, when I first started playing music, I didn't think I needed it, now I don't know how I lived without it. Not only does it expand your options, but it gives you more control over your own music, over your own ideas. You know why things sound the way they do, and you know how to receive the best results from a combination of sounds or instruments. Writing an album like The Canterbury Tales would not have been nearly as successful or rewarding had I not acquired a knowledge of music thery long beforehand.

Now, this absolutely does not mean that you can't write good music if you aren't up on your theory. Some of my favorite artists don't know a fish scale from a music scale, but I have to say, it helps tremendously if you do. For me, learning about all different kinds of chords was super helpful, and trying them out with different chord combinations. A single chord can hold entire worlds, entire musical and emotional expressions. Try out all the different kinds of chords belonging to a certain root (C7, CMaj7, C6, C6/9, C7#11, etc) and you'll find that, though they belong to the same root family, they have incredibly different meaning within. 

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Here is a website where you can input notes to find a scale: www.scales-chords.com/scalefinder.php

This is a musical scale database. Select one, play around with it, note the intervals, and see what chords fit in the scale: www.scales-chords.com/scalenav.php

Here is a website that can show you almost every possible chord available on piano: www.gootar.com/piano/index.php
(It can only be open for 5 minutes if you haven't paid for it, but you can just refresh the page and it takes you right back)

Here is a website that lets you build/look up chords for guitar: www.chorderator.com/

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In terms of building your song with instruments, it really pays off to be familiar with just about every instrument's sound and timbre, even if you're using vst's. Know which instruments blend with what. A trombone will not sound as good playing a chord with a viola nearly as much as a french horn or woodwind will. 
This is a great website that will show you the qualities of symphonic/orchestral instruments, and good blending combinations for them: vsl.co.at/en/Academy/Instrumentology

[andrewwerdna]

I'm a bit of a doofus when it comes to music theory but I feel like I've improved a little bit. A while ago I downloaded a program that detects what key a song is in, I used it to analyze my old album Seven Wonders and like every track is in e minor haha.

[nahadoth]

Jan 9, 2017 1:51:54 GMT -5 andrewwerdna said:

I'm a bit of a doofus when it comes to music theory but I feel like I've improved a little bit. A while ago I downloaded a program that detects what key a song is in, I used it to analyze my old album Seven Wonders and like every track is in e minor haha.

that ends up being pretty common in metal and dungeon synth - for DS, because E (and A-minor) have minimal sharps and so are easy to play on keyboard instruments, and in metal because the standard tuning of a guitar favors the key of E. I remember the first time I made this observation was listening to Iced Earth's Horror Show, because like the first 5 songs featured galloping triplets in E minor. Of course, an album could entirely be in the same key if there was a solid diversity in the songwriting, so there is that.

To add to this discussion, I'd encourage everyone to learn about modes - the short version is, a mode is what you get when you start a scale on something other than the first note. So if I have a C major scale (all white keys), but I chose to start on D and end on D an octave higher, the collection of notes is known as the Dorian mode. (E-E is Phrygian, F-F is Lydian, G-G Mixolydian, A-A is Aeolian, but we also know it as relative minor, and B-B would be the controversial Locrian mode). it enables you to get a lot of diversity out of your sounds, since many of them sound more like a major or a minor scale, but with subtle differences in character that can go a long way.

chaucerianmyth has a good point about knowing about Orchestration - although I would add that a lot of the standard rules established in university-level orchestration classes may not apply to DS style timbres, especially with low-fi. But I think the concepts could be abstracted, in terms of thinking about the types of waves synths use (Sine, Sawtooth, Square etc) and how those are often used to emulate particular types of instruments. As with real orchestration, it may play into your composition in an intuitive rather than purely academic way, but it can help you make sense of why things are not sounding as you expect.

[Erang]

I'm not a teacher and I'm not a specialist in anything but I made this video with simple thoughts & advice about creativity that works with me when I create music. So I hope they could help some people if they start making music > youtu.be/bkAy7bl1ukg

[chaucerianmyth]

I'm definitely going to second what nahadoth said about modes. Super important, especially for Dungeon Synth, a since a ton of medieval music utilizes the Dorian Mode in particular.

[andrewwerdna]

For the other theorytards like myself who primarily stick to the white keys, a simple trick I've been doing lately is just changing the tuning for a particular track. So when I start a song I'll detune all the instruments by some interval of 1-11, and then when I start noodling it immediately sounds different from the familiar stale old moods, even though I'm still playing the same keys in the same general patterns.

Great video Erang, from my experience all of that is excellent advice about the creative process. It's all stuff I've learned the hard way, haha. "Make music NOW" seems to be the main idea, and I could not agree more, though it's something I struggle to put into practice. If early on Lord Lovidicus obsessed about having the perfect synth and the perfect production values we might never have had an album like Trolldom. I think those moments of inexperience and limitations should be treasured, because that's often when the work ends up being the most original. But that's not to say one shouldn't try to expand their sound, just don't wait until the sound is expanded before you start composing because there will always be more room to expand.

[nahadoth]

Yes I agree - the video is great. And I think an interesting contrast to some of the perfectionist attitude on the FB group. I like the idea of getting a balance - I think personally that taking three years to make an album would drive me insane, but also that it's probably not a good idea to release something the same day or week you record it. But yes, I think there are certain attitudes in all composition, not just dungeon synth, that you need to complete your tool-kit before you ever begin composing, whether that toolkit is made of theory, or technology/vsts, or what.

This attitude caused me to lose a lot of time with other projects, and it wasn't until encountering DIY culture that I started to realize that I did in fact have to do it myself if I wanted it to be done, rather than waiting for the right conditions to materialize. So the subject is close to my heart.

[nebulosa]

Jan 9, 2017 14:06:33 GMT -5 Erang said:

I'm not a teacher and I'm not a specialist in anything but I made this video with simple thoughts & advice about creativity that works with me when I create music. So I hope they could help some people if they start making music > youtu.be/bkAy7bl1ukg

Great video. I usually really struggle with overthinking how the music should sound and end up getting discouraged before one track is even finished. This video definitely encouraged me to put out my first release a couple days ago, so thank you for that. 

[wayfarer]

Some very solid advice is given here, and it encourages me to sit down at the keys and create something from a-z instead of spending most of my time just aimlessly staring at my monitor not knowing which sounds to pick out of the heap of vst's I've aquired over the years. Erang's video is spot on, there's some very recognisable stuff in there. Thanks to all for the valuable tips!

[Verminaard]

While I understand that it works with some, I wholeheartedly disagree with the fact that learning music theory should be a requirement, as someone who has learned a bit of music theory through my education, though mostly just with being able to read music (was part of a choir that sang madrigal pieces and we also went to sightreading competitions).

Don't get me wrong -- music theory can 100% help. However, I don't think that music theory should necessarily be the "building blocks" you start with. Music theory is more of something to turn to when you have no idea what to do next for me -- a last resort, if you will. I'm very weird, but I personally found trying to write with extensive use of it extremely exhausting and incredibly hard. I would constantly second guess myself -- which is a good thing, but not the way I was doing it. If something SOUNDED GOOD that I had wrote but didn't apply to whatever rule, I would become paralyzed and go into mental shutdown.

I think that if you're like me, music theory can sometimes vastly overcomplicate things. If you DO use it, remember -- don't make the mistakes I did, and a lot of people make. Music theory is not the rule of law, merely an aid. It can, and should be cast aside without a second thought if it's getting in the way of your creativity.