Getting started in Dungeon Synth as a musician

[zerointerno]

From my experience theory actually helps. It gives you better understanding on what you are doing. Then again, it quite obstructs a blind approach, flagging some moments like "you cant go that way", for both good and bad.
Personally I rely alot on theory with my own somewhat dungeon synth music (Gentle Fish Mumbling). However, not all I know really comes to use, like, I have a clear idea on what are dominat and subdominant, but I never found any real usage for that knowledge.
I mostly concerned with fishing the every last dissonance out of a track during after I compile all that polyphony of many melodies layering upon each other, and the knowledge of the interval types helps like nothing else.

In short you don't have to get a degree on a music class before creating your own. But learning a thing or two is preferred over the full ignorance, making your own path somehow easier.

[Erang]

andrewwerdna nahadoth nebulosa wayfarer = Thank you guys for the feedback about the video, glad if it is appreciate!

Concerning music theory I personally have 0% knowledge at all.

And I think that, as usual, it's a question of personal preference: obviously, many great musicians have poor or no musical instruction while, of course, many others great musicians have solid musical background.

Once again it depends on what you want to express and how you want to express it.

That being said my personal opinion is :

PROS
I'm sure that if I had better musical theory, I will spend less time sometimes to find the progression or counter melody I have in mind... I wouldn't make better or worse music (if that makes any sense at all because IMO there is no such thing as "bad art", but that's another subject...) but it would maybe ease the whole process. Of course, I'm talking here about the music I make at the moment. If tomorrow I had to compose a movie score with an entire real symphonic orchestra, I'm sure musical theory would be more required.

CONS
This is very personal but I know that, in my own experience, I usualy lost interest in something when I know the "trick"... To me, music (art) is like magic and it must keep some secrets for the listener but for the musician as well (at least to me). When I know how something "works" it ceased to be fun and become... I don't know... just another routine in my life... So I never want to know what a "good" chord is or "what should be the next note". I want to be clear : I have the utmost respect for great musician who knows theory and I admire that. But it's just that I feel & know that it wouldn't work for me, that's all...

Because one thing I'm looking after when I make music is to get back to this childhood feeling I had when I was a kid, drawing alone in my room, making music with my guitar or creating tabletop games with pencil & papers... it is almost impossible because I'm 35 yrs old but, at least through music, I can sometimes get back to this secret place... and I don't want to ruin that by becoming a "professional" with many technical knowledge and lost the magic.

I don't care if I don't make things how they are supposed to be done.

I just follow my path and there is room for everyone.

[chaucerianmyth]

Jan 19, 2017 1:15:42 GMT -5 zerointerno said:

From my experience theory actually helps. It gives you better understanding on what you are doing. Then again, it quite obstructs a blind approach, flagging some moments like "you cant go that way", for both good and bad.
Personally I rely alot on theory with my own somewhat dungeon synth music (Gentle Fish Mumbling). However, not all I know really comes to use, like, I have a clear idea on what are dominat and subdominant, but I never found any real usage for that knowledge.
I mostly concerned with fishing the every last dissonance out of a track during after I compile all that polyphony of many melodies layering upon each other, and the knowledge of the interval types helps like nothing else.

In short you don't have to get a degree on a music class before creating your own. But learning a thing or two is preferred over the full ignorance, making your own path somehow easier.

I agree with this completely, and would add that you can learn music theory without losing the intuitive side of composition and creation as well. I think the best artists have a little bit of both, but certainly, many amazing artists have no theory knowledge at all. I really think that more knowledge of theory just helps one to expand their options, their musical arsenal, if you will. Frankly, if you know more than a few basic chords, then you have more to work with. Sure, you could stumble upon different kinds of chords by accident, but if you know them already, you can take charge of your art and work and decide whether or not to use them in a piece, where they would fit, and what might sound better in a given musical situation. I would say, as zerointerno said before, that knowing a little bit is better than knowing absolutely nothing in almost any scenario, if only for the sake of control and being able to refine one's musical vision, in addition to a conceptual or lyrical vision, which do not really require any theory necessarily. 

[mausolei]

I totally agree with Erang. I understand why music theory is so important and I mean no disrespect to the many incredible artists within the genre who possess this knowledge, such as Chaucerianmyth. I'm sure anyone who has made the mistake of listening to my music would agree: I don't know the first thing about theory. But I do know how to let intuition guide me. When making a song, I start with an emotion or a memory or a time in my life and focus completely on that throughout the process. Knowing how naive I'm approaching it only makes it more exciting when I hear the pieces resonating with each other. I'll be the first to admit, they're not all chart-toppers, but that's not important to me. What's important to me is creating a small book in each album filled with chapters of memory that I can listen to months/years later and revisit a stage in my life and realize how organically it happened. Like a hidden artifact that I was there to discover. Sorry if this got too bogus at the end, there's been a lot of drinking today.

[chaucerianmyth]

Jan 19, 2017 19:37:10 GMT -5 mausolei said:

I totally agree with Erang. I understand why music theory is so important and I mean no disrespect to the many incredible artists within the genre who possess this knowledge, such as Chaucerianmyth. I'm sure anyone who has made the mistake of listening to my music would agree: I don't know the first thing about theory. But I do know how to let intuition guide me. When making a song, I start with an emotion or a memory or a time in my life and focus completely on that throughout the process. Knowing how naive I'm approaching it only makes it more exciting when I hear the pieces resonating with each other. I'll be the first to admit, they're not all chart-toppers, but that's not important to me. What's important to me is creating a small book in each album filled with chapters of memory that I can listen to months/years later and revisit a stage in my life and realize how organically it happened. Like a hidden artifact that I was there to discover. Sorry if this got too bogus at the end, there's been a lot of drinking today.

I think this is great! But I have to add that intuition and theory are not mutually exclusive. Even with knowledge of music theory, I still find it better to be guided by a more abstract feeling (emotions, memories, seasons, etc). I think this can obviously work whether you know theory or not - that's the beauty of it - but I do have to say, learning even a little bit really helps even with this method. It can still happen organically, you can still be guided by emotion and intuition, and you can still make the whole process spontaneous, but this can all be augmented by a little bit of knowledge, not to the point where your whole composition process is mechanical or mathematical, but to where you know what you're doing. 

That being said, if someone's doing something that works for them, I'm not gonna coerce them to do otherwise, but on the other hand, I can seldom think of a situation where learning and improving one's knowledge is a bad thing.

[Verminaard]

The main reason it can be a bad thing to MY PERSONAL METHOD -- please note, I'm not saying that any method is more right than another -- is when you take an art like music and start to break it down and get almost scientific with it, it ruins the joy for me. I work with network technology and a bit of programming, that's where I get my "scientific" thinking done and I love it and find great satisfaction in it. When I want to make music, I don't want to be messing with things like that. It sucks the joy out of it for me. I realized this in school when I thought I wanted to be a music teacher, got into theory courses and was utterly miserable. That being said, I do know theory through education, and it's very possible I make use of it without realizing it or consciously deciding to, but not to the point where it becomes something I'm thinking about most of the time.

[surlaneige]

Hi, just want to say, i'm so glad this board exists! Happy to be here, and hope to contribute more over time.

In my view, music theory is really only the codification of what we all know intuitively as musicians and music fans. We can tell when something is out of tune, not because we have some rule-book in front of us as we listen to a piece, but because something innate in our senses makes it seem that way to us. Now, as the theory builds up it can become far too complex to the point where only academics need to care about it, but a little bit can be very useful.

Imagine you're on a quest and come to a room full of locked doors. You can go no further as you have none of the keys to open these doors so you can only stay in the room or go back the way you came. Music theory gives you the keys you need, and then it becomes your choice which door to open each time you find yourself in that room again...

[nayrb]

Jan 22, 2017 15:03:35 GMT -5 surlaneige said:

Hi, just want to say, i'm so glad this board exists! Happy to be here, and hope to contribute more over time.

In my view, music theory is really only the codification of what we all know intuitively as musicians and music fans. We can tell when something is out of tune, not because we have some rule-book in front of us as we listen to a piece, but because something innate in our senses makes it seem that way to us. Now, as the theory builds up it can become far too complex to the point where only academics need to care about it, but a little bit can be very useful.

Imagine you're on a quest and come to a room full of locked doors. You can go no further as you have none of the keys to open these doors so you can only stay in the room or go back the way you came. Music theory gives you the keys you need, and then it becomes your choice which door to open each time you find yourself in that room again...

Good analogy with the keys and locks. Simply speaking from experience I can say that a little knowledge is always a good thing. I've been through it myself, many years ago: that stage where we actually fear expanding our knowledge will somehow kill the magic; it certainly will not.

My advice, if anyone wants it, is just to be receptive. Certainly go for it and make music as best you can and be confident. Don't fret about big concepts you don't understand or feel you don't need because you may just not be in a situation where they will be of any value to you. But that can change, and in some cases it certainly will (if my experience has taught me anything). Don't mistake a little advice here and there for an attempt to burst your bubble. And certainly don't look at useful tidbits you pick up along the way or that are handed to you as threats; they will only help you build up a foundation for yourself and help you with your goals. Ultimately you will decide how best to apply what you learn, and even what is relevant to your goals in the first place. You don't have to have a vastly comprehensive knowledge of music in order to make music and you don't have to change over night or advance in leaps and bounds, but you will only benefit yourself by allowing for growth.

[mausolei]

I'd just like to thank everyone on this thread (and on this board) for writing and speaking with such integrity. I'm so sick of threads getting out of control and instantly turning into shit-tossing and baby-bitching. There are so many amazing thoughts coming out of everyone here and almost all of them are different. I know music theory isn't politics or religion or sex at the dinner table, but this community is obviously very passionate about their methods and it's really refreshing to see the disparate in opinions not translating into name-calling. 

[lusitano]

Well I'd never imagine there was a Dungeon Synth forum or board, but I'll be damned, here it is! I wish I knew about it a couple of weeks ago when I was starting to write Dungeon Synth like music, it would have helped tremendously. I ended up winging it with what little advice I could find and with my intermediate knowledge of music theory. If you guys will accept it, I'll answer the 6 questions that were posed at the beginning of this thread, and give you the perspective of a person who never wrote music before.

What medium do you use to perform?
I don't of course, at least not yet, since I've just started. I've never written music or performed any piece or know how to play any instrument well, I can fiddle on a guitar and on the piano a tiny bit.

Software you use to record?
I started using Fruity Loops (or FL Studio), I tried a couple of other software like Reaper and Cakewalk, but I like FL Studios interface a lot, it just feels natural to me.

Do you do any mastering once you've recorded?
A decent amount yeah, making sure each instrument is sounding like how I want. And I spent quite a few days to get the mix to sound as rough as it does.

Any particular VST's you prefer?
Everyone was recommending Korg M1 left and right, and so I took a jab at it and yeah, M1 is one amazing VST. Wavestation was also useful.

How much have you spent on your setup?
Well, I already had an FL Studio license and a beefy computer, good enough to handle this kind of stuff. I also had already toyed with Wavestation, so I only had to get Korg M1, which I got for 40 bucks if I'm not mistaken. I also used no instruments, as I manually inserted each note on the piano roll.

Are there any budget-friendly options for a prospective DS artist?
Yes, I've always wanted to get into writing music, but the genres I'm most familiar with are metal and classical music, both genres that I've always found a bit iffy to get into to. That is, until I found this delicious little genre that I'm quickly falling in love with. There are free VSTs out there and smaller free DAWs, and Audacity, and I will be going to some thrift shop to acquire a keyboard, if you buy them used, they are usually dirt cheap.

About the music theory: I know a fair bit of it myself, but find it quite annoying, it holds you back because you start thinking if it's right or wrong to do a certain thing and if it falls well within the scale or something. I do prefer to use music theory as an auxiliary tool and never as the driving force of the creative or writing process. however, it's very useful to understand how to use and apply certain scales and how to build chords and progressions. Chords, in particular, understanding them can be a huge asset.

Anyways, I've talked too much now, but I'm very glad to be here and hopefully, I'll be able to contribute.

[chaucerianmyth]

Feb 21, 2017 17:37:22 GMT -5 lusitano said:

Well I'd never imagine there was a Dungeon Synth forum or board, but I'll be damned, here it is! I wish I knew about it a couple of weeks ago when I was starting to write Dungeon Synth like music, it would have helped tremendously. I ended up winging it with what little advice I could find and with my intermediate knowledge of music theory. If you guys will accept it, I'll answer the 6 questions that were posed at the beginning of this thread, and give you the perspective of a person who never wrote music before.

What medium do you use to perform?
I don't of course, at least not yet, since I've just started. I've never written music or performed any piece or know how to play any instrument well, I can fiddle on a guitar and on the piano a tiny bit.

Software you use to record?
I started using Fruity Loops (or FL Studio), I tried a couple of other software like Reaper and Cakewalk, but I like FL Studios interface a lot, it just feels natural to me.

Do you do any mastering once you've recorded?
A decent amount yeah, making sure each instrument is sounding like how I want. And I spent quite a few days to get the mix to sound as rough as it does.

Any particular VST's you prefer?
Everyone was recommending Korg M1 left and right, and so I took a jab at it and yeah, M1 is one amazing VST. Wavestation was also useful.

How much have you spent on your setup?
Well, I already had an FL Studio license and a beefy computer, good enough to handle this kind of stuff. I also had already toyed with Wavestation, so I only had to get Korg M1, which I got for 40 bucks if I'm not mistaken. I also used no instruments, as I manually inserted each note on the piano roll.

Are there any budget-friendly options for a prospective DS artist?
Yes, I've always wanted to get into writing music, but the genres I'm most familiar with are metal and classical music, both genres that I've always found a bit iffy to get into to. That is, until I found this delicious little genre that I'm quickly falling in love with. There are free VSTs out there and smaller free DAWs, and Audacity, and I will be going to some thrift shop to acquire a keyboard, if you buy them used, they are usually dirt cheap.

About the music theory: I know a fair bit of it myself, but find it quite annoying, it holds you back because you start thinking if it's right or wrong to do a certain thing and if it falls well within the scale or something. I do prefer to use music theory as an auxiliary tool and never as the driving force of the creative or writing process. however, it's very useful to understand how to use and apply certain scales and how to build chords and progressions. Chords, in particular, understanding them can be a huge asset.

Anyways, I've talked too much now, but I'm very glad to be here and hopefully, I'll be able to contribute.

I completely agree with you regarding chords. If I could only retain one aspect of my music theory knowledge, it would be chord theory. Like you said, it can be a huge asset.

[Tyrannus]

I'm sure it comes as a HUGE surprise to everyone that I have no knowledge of theory. I can see its utility for other people but I feel so restricted by really any form of structure that I have no desire to learn more about it. Even releasing material as Tyrannus I realized I was making music in a manner that was more structured than what felt satisfying to me, and thus you see the much more "out there" Einhorn project, which itself could even be considered a more "reigned in" version of my pure noise. I wonder if that's my anti-authority worldview shining through..."no mom, I don't wanna follow your stupid rules for songwriting" or something like that, haha

[olofdigre]

If the method is not knowing or not being hindered by music theory one should just play for the win. But for those not afraid of learning just a tiny bit I would recommend to google "medieval modes" or "medieval dorian mode" (I like dorian the most i think). Before I made some Digre tracks for the album yet not publicized (I will provide soon) I saw a few youtube videos made by some music teacher person that was both inspiring and helpful.

these I saw and these I would recommend:

www.youtube.com/watch?v=How4f5c6rBU

www.youtube.com/watch?v=GIVTk0Y2nc0

[olofdigre]

And I need to add that I have seen among my friends that most (not all) of them who are pretty skilled in music theory and have taken classes and even today works in studios - they are also the ones that never gets any records or songs done and when they do the results are boring and uninspired. But those who do not have this theory background do produce lots more interesting music that has soul or that alive and honest feel. And this, of course, is not a general rule but more an observation.... And it would be silly to say that a theoretical inderstanding would be a hinder for making great music so I do not say that.

[lusitano]

Oh that looks so cool! Thanks for the videos olofdigre, I'm gonna watch them whenever I make the time for it, it looks like pretty damn interesting.