Idyllic Synth

[faeryring]

I'm enjoying this thread.

This is one of my favourite types of DS. Nahadoth, you hit it spot on there, a really good analysis.

The point about stasis as opposed to movement is really key, I think.

For me, I tend to categorise DS into a few types:

Battle-ready: (e.g. Morketsvind) blaring horns, bombastic and driving.
Idyllic: (e.g. Fief, Medhelan) recorders, lutes, jaunty and very village/tavern feeling. the end of the day, in front of a fire, folk drinking by a fire.
Dungeon delving: (e.g. early Murgrind, Dwalin, Erdstall) deep, subterranean, drones, oppressive and dusty.
Desolate landscape: (e.g. Fodt Til a Herske Mortiis) wandering the realm after a battle, very barren and wounded and vast.
Old Castles: (e.g. Exclamavit) ancient and dusty and monastic

I personally love this sort of stuff, the 'idyllic' stuff. I don't think DS needs to stay, particularly, the bastard child of BM. I suppose it's only natural that significant stylistic delineations will begin to become apparent, just as it did with BM and pretty much all other types of music. I think the possibilities are endless with DS.

I suppose a question I would ask would be; when does something stop being DS? Like, what makes something Dungeon Synth that sounds almost identical to something like Brandon Fiechter, which is just straight up fantasy/videogame music? Is it simply intention of the musician? Kinship with the genre?

[thekeeper]

Feb 13, 2017 20:08:54 GMT -5 faeryring said:

I'm enjoying this thread.

This is one of my favourite types of DS. Nahadoth, you hit it spot on there, a really good analysis.

The point about stasis as opposed to movement is really key, I think.

For me, I tend to categorise DS into a few types:

Battle-ready: (e.g. Morketsvind) blaring horns, bombastic and driving.
Idyllic: (e.g. Fief, Medhelan) recorders, lutes, jaunty and very village/tavern feeling. the end of the day, in front of a fire, folk drinking by a fire.
Dungeon delving: (e.g. early Murgrind, Dwalin, Erdstall) deep, subterranean, drones, oppressive and dusty.
Desolate landscape: (e.g. Fodt Til a Herske Mortiis) wandering the realm after a battle, very barren and wounded and vast.
Old Castles: (e.g. Exclamavit) ancient and dusty and monastic

I personally love this sort of stuff, the 'idyllic' stuff. I don't think DS needs to stay, particularly, the bastard child of BM. I suppose it's only natural that significant stylistic delineations will begin to become apparent, just as it did with BM and pretty much all other types of music. I think the possibilities are endless with DS.

I suppose a question I would ask would be; when does something stop being DS? Like, what makes something Dungeon Synth that sounds almost identical to something like Brandon Fiechter, which is just straight up fantasy/videogame music? Is it simply intention of the musician? Kinship with the genre?

I like these categories. Some people dislike these more minute classifications, but I think they're fun (and surely not absolute or definitive). The "is this DS?" line is a blurry one. Take something like Synth Bard. The first Goldbox Renditions tape is really just CRPG covers. The upcoming Ravenloft album is less chip sounding, but still, these two are within the canon of DS and these releases adorn many DS collections. Would the Daggerfall soundtrack be considered canon DS? I think intention could certainly be a factor. Brandon Fiechter doesn't attempt to make DS specifically, but much of it certainly borders on DS. I personally would say that his music is not Dungeon Synth. Perhaps we're trying to discern "fantasy music" from "dungeon synth", which could be difficult.

[Tyrannus]

I find a lot of dark ambient or "neoclassical darkwave" music that I feel could be considered DS. I definitely think it's sort of subjective but intention is definitely a big part. I sometimes feel like a lot of the more idyllic stuff is almost more of a neoclassical or some kind of synthesized neofolk or synthesized orchestral music. The term "dungeon synth" to me has certain connotations of bleakness and darkness but obviously there's a lot of lighthearted stuff out there. I could see it being argued that it's a different style entirely but at this point in time I see no need to try to further divide an already fairly small community. I'll always prefer my DS murky and dark but that's just my personal relationship with the music. I think everyone can get something different out of it

[chaucerianmyth]

I think it's very interesting - the distinction. For me, the line is certainly murky, but there are a few things I consider when thinking "is this Dungeon Synth?"

For one, repetition is a big deal. Even in Dungeon Synth that has a very Neoclassical bent to it, it is usually more repetitive than most any classical or baroque work one could think of. That is a huge component that is a holdover from Dungeon Synth's Dark Ambient roots, even if the song itself sounds quite different than those roots. Also, a linear, pattern-based sort of layering is another aspect. In these Idyllic/Neoclassical Dungeon Synth styles (of which I am very familiar with myself) there is often a base rhythm or melody that is repeated for a while, and as it repeats, more instruments and layers are added, not in a spontaneous way, but one after another, usually after 4 or 8 measures. This is another holdover from Dungeon Synth's roots, though less so than the repetition itself.

These are just a few ways that I think, even in styles that seem wildly different - such as Idyllic Dungeon Synth - the stylistic and generic qualities of Dungeon Synth can be found and defended as being part of the genre whole

[nahadoth]

Definitely agreed - the line between DS and Fantasy Music is blurry - though I think the latter is a clear case of a square being a rectangle but not all rectangles being a square. Even real-world, pure historical-based DS has an element of escapism which compared to the modern age could be viewed as fantasy - but it's definitely the case that not all fantasy music is DS. So I think intent, as much as defining compositional traits, has an impact on whether something is DS.


And as an aside, I think it's great that DS is turning into this weirdly huge pocket universe with the amount of influences it has absorbed - the huge range in some of the best-of-2016 lists is really inspiring to me, from the cinematic and epic to the raw and lo-fi; sometimes flirting with the language of neoclassical, neofolk, dark ambient, film scores and VGM. Of course, this is a one-way transaction - with the possible exception of neofolk, most of those other styles aren't really affected in any way by what's happening in DS, and that's fine. It helps immensely that between us we have such peculiar and far reaching tastes, despite the many overwhelming similarities, and those influence the music in so many subtle ways. And since I'm a nerd, I love going through these distinctions, even if they are flawed, even if they'll change in a month or be obsolete in a year.

[Tyrannus]

Feb 14, 2017 0:09:25 GMT -5 nahadoth said:

Definitely agreed - the line between DS and Fantasy Music is blurry - though I think the latter is a clear case of a square being a rectangle but not all rectangles being a square. Even real-world, pure historical-based DS has an element of escapism which compared to the modern age could be viewed as fantasy - but it's definitely the case that not all fantasy music is DS. So I think intent, as much as defining compositional traits, has an impact on whether something is DS.


And as an aside, I think it's great that DS is turning into this weirdly huge pocket universe with the amount of influences it has absorbed - the huge range in some of the best-of-2016 lists is really inspiring to me, from the cinematic and epic to the raw and lo-fi; sometimes flirting with the language of neoclassical, neofolk, dark ambient, film scores and VGM. Of course, this is a one-way transaction - with the possible exception of neofolk, most of those other styles aren't really affected in any way by what's happening in DS, and that's fine. It helps immensely that between us we have such peculiar and far reaching tastes, despite the many overwhelming similarities, and those influence the music in so many subtle ways. And since I'm a nerd, I love going through these distinctions, even if they are flawed, even if they'll change in a month or be obsolete in a year.

You bring up a lot of interesting points here!  I am very interested in this DS/VGM overlap and I think it'd be cool to get more elements of bit music involved and stuff like that.  Also the influence of games like runescape, dark souls, the elder scrolls, etc. can be pretty prominent so I think it's cool how those fit together.  

I also think you bring up a very good point in that DS seems like kind of a stylistic melting pot where a bunch of influences can kind of converge.  DS is very participatory and I'm sure like 75% of DS fans are also DS musicians.  It's a genre for fans of other music to create their own fantasy, weaving their inspirations into their own work.  Many DS projects may be that person's first musical endeavor in general.  In a sense I think it's a niche genre for fans of other music and fantasy aesthetics, where innovation and progress take a back seat to tradition and a cohesive atmosphere.  DS is a cauldron into which you pour yourself and where you combine the sounds and images that have inspired you.  Because it's inherently derivative (not in like a bad way, I just mean it can only exist as sort of a reflection of its influences) there's no real room for it to in turn influence the things that influence it.  When you only include ingredients from existing styles of music, there's no way you can distill an end product that possesses characteristics absent in those pieces that influenced it.   I mean looking at the "most innovative" DS, it's still just a combination of stuff that already exists.  Feel free to disagree, but to me Grimrik is not making an impact on the Berlin school, Chaucerian Myth is not making an impact on jazz or neoclassical (again no offense at all.  You know I love your work but I mean I think you'd agree that you're not necessarily "changing the game" for your parent styles), and I am not making an impact on noise music.

You'll kind of see this idea reiterated with the whole wave of DS elitism and BM-esque musical conservatism.  I'm totally fine with DS being derivative, and I'm fine with that in BM too.  But I think these prevailing attitudes are important to keep in mind as a DS artist, especially as you try to carve a unique niche for yourself (if that's even your goal).  This is also important to keep in mind, I think, as a member of the DS community.  For instance, I think one needs to proceed humbly and one must be self-aware; knowing how their work fits into the grand scheme of things.  I think this is typically done, though, which I appreciate.  While there are certainly "celebrities" of the DS world they tend not to be obnoxious about it, haha

[Alder]

Mar 15, 2017 14:21:12 GMT -5 Tyrannus said:

...and I am not making an impact on noise music.

Your work has made an influence on my noise project & those of some of my friends, for sure!  

So what if I only play in living rooms to tiny audiences comprised of 90% people I know (and who are also performing)?  Most of us came down the noise chute through a more, uh, Wolf Eyes or John Weiss-type heritage, but now we've got these "gloomy stone tower" ideas kicking around the group, expanding our minds and sounds, growing the way we filter the world through music! 

Anyway, maybe I'm way off the thread topic, but part of the reason I love DS is how incredibly broad the sounds of the genre are.  It's enthralling and appealing to me that hardly no one would contest a genetic and atmospheric relationship between wildly different-sounding projects like, say Roman Master & Chaucerian Myth.  In fact, the variety of sounds out there drives me to keep digging around on bandcamp or youtube or this forum - what strange sounds might I hear today?  Will there be noises of environments that transport me to new worlds or textures of moods I've not thought to include in my own music?

It doesn't make sense to me to try and tie DS irrevocably to its BM ancestry or what-ever-other standard.  Intention seems the most important aspect.  If someone hears harps and tambourine in their own, personal dungeon and someone else hears sky-splitting horns and the battledrums of orcs in theirs, who has the authority to proclaim one dungeon-sense as more valid than the other?  We can vote with our support, but the internet has given us functionally infinite space to create DS in whatever direction we want!  That said, I do believe in sub-genres as a helpful way to organize music (at least in one's head) & would be interested in hearing more on this matter from dungeon-hardened veterans who have a good handle on the full breadth of the many twisting tunnels and chambers of the macro-genre.

[Tyrannus]

Apr 25, 2017 16:18:31 GMT -5 Alder said:

Mar 15, 2017 14:21:12 GMT -5 Tyrannus said:

...and I am not making an impact on noise music.

Your work has made an influence on my noise project & those of some of my friends, for sure!  

So what if I only play in living rooms to tiny audiences comprised of 90% people I know (and who are also performing)?  Most of us came down the noise chute through a more, uh, Wolf Eyes or John Weiss-type heritage, but now we've got these "gloomy stone tower" ideas kicking around the group, expanding our minds and sounds, growing the way we filter the world through music! 

Anyway, maybe I'm way off the thread topic, but part of the reason I love DS is how incredibly broad the sounds of the genre are.  It's enthralling and appealing to me that hardly no one would contest a genetic and atmospheric relationship between wildly different-sounding projects like, say Roman Master & Chaucerian Myth.  In fact, the variety of sounds out there drives me to keep digging around on bandcamp or youtube or this forum - what strange sounds might I hear today?  Will there be noises of environments that transport me to new worlds or textures of moods I've not thought to include in my own music?

It doesn't make sense to me to try and tie DS irrevocably to its BM ancestry or what-ever-other standard.  Intention seems the most important aspect.  If someone hears harps and tambourine in their own, personal dungeon and someone else hears sky-splitting horns and the battledrums of orcs in theirs, who has the authority to proclaim one dungeon-sense as more valid than the other?  We can vote with our support, but the internet has given us functionally infinite space to create DS in whatever direction we want!  That said, I do believe in sub-genres as a helpful way to organize music (at least in one's head) & would be interested in hearing more on this matter from dungeon-hardened veterans who have a good handle on the full breadth of the many twisting tunnels and chambers of the macro-genre.

Beautifully said!  I love DS because it's so varied and personal and cool.  I don't get the notion being disappointed by being surprised or shocked by what you hear.  You should be excited for weirdness!  

[lusitano]

Well, most people look for simplicity and familiarity in music, so it's only normal that the unknown is often pushed back. DS is already a foreign and strange style of music, adding noise makes it the whole adventure weirder, and probably far too much for the average music listener. That said, you keep up your good work, The Tyrant's Tower release has been getting a lot of good praise.

[Tyrannus]

Apr 25, 2017 18:04:35 GMT -5 lusitano said:

Well, most people look for simplicity and familiarity in music, so it's only normal that the unknown is often pushed back. DS is already a foreign and strange style of music, adding noise makes it the whole adventure weirder, and probably far too much for the average music listener. That said, you keep up your good work, The Tyrant's Tower release has been getting a lot of good praise.

Oh I don't mean just me but like in general, it seems people are often resistant to change.  thekeeper posted an interesting sort of vaporwave-esque piece up on the fb that got totally ripped apart by some people.  I mean I guess not everyone is gonna like everything, but DS is not a genre where I go into a new release with very fixed expectations.  I tend to be sort of open for whatever they throw at me.  I guess some folks are all about distinctly comfy sounds but I find all sorts of weird stuff comfy so I'm not a great judge of that haha.  I guess I get it but I wish people would step outside the box sometimes haha  

[lusitano]

Apr 25, 2017 18:46:56 GMT -5 Tyrannus said:

Apr 25, 2017 18:04:35 GMT -5 lusitano said:

Well, most people look for simplicity and familiarity in music, so it's only normal that the unknown is often pushed back. DS is already a foreign and strange style of music, adding noise makes it the whole adventure weirder, and probably far too much for the average music listener. That said, you keep up your good work, The Tyrant's Tower release has been getting a lot of good praise.

Oh I don't mean just me but like in general, it seems people are often resistant to change.  thekeeper posted an interesting sort of vaporwave-esque piece up on the fb that got totally ripped apart by some people.  I mean I guess not everyone is gonna like everything, but DS is not a genre where I go into a new release with very fixed expectations.  I tend to be sort of open for whatever they throw at me.  I guess some folks are all about distinctly comfy sounds but I find all sorts of weird stuff comfy so I'm not a great judge of that haha.  I guess I get it but I wish people would step outside the box sometimes haha  

That's a good mentality to have towards music, just being open to everything.

[Alder]

Apr 25, 2017 18:46:56 GMT -5 Tyrannus said:

Apr 25, 2017 18:04:35 GMT -5 lusitano said:

thekeeper posted an interesting sort of vaporwave-esque piece up on the fb that got totally ripped apart by some people.

Do you have a link for this?  (I've no fb right now)

Also, curious to what the group thinks of this opinion: Vaporwave & DS are kissing cousins.

[Tyrannus]

Apr 26, 2017 9:41:08 GMT -5 Alder said:

Apr 25, 2017 18:46:56 GMT -5 Tyrannus said:

Do you have a link for this?  (I've no fb right now)

Also, curious to what the group thinks of this opinion: Vaporwave & DS are kissing cousins.

thedeepforest.bandcamp.com/releases

I think the two can work together but there are some ideological conflicts in my mind. Vaporwave always seems to involve some level of irony whereas DS I feel is super sincere. But that's just one viewpoint

[Alder]

Apr 26, 2017 11:01:48 GMT -5 Tyrannus said:

Apr 26, 2017 9:41:08 GMT -5 Alder said:

Do you have a link for this?  (I've no fb right now)

Also, curious to what the group thinks of this opinion: Vaporwave & DS are kissing cousins.

thedeepforest.bandcamp.com/releases

I think the two can work together but there are some ideological conflicts in my mind. Vaporwave always seems to involve some level of irony whereas DS I feel is super sincere. But that's just one viewpoint

Thanks for the link!  Really dig it - plus got a massive nostalgia wave: that album art is the Ent illustration from the very first LotR printing I ever read!

I kinda-sorta agree with you on the ideological conflict/irony point.  Anecdotally, there seems to be a serious chasm between the artists of that genre and the fans. I know two guys who are vaporwave "producers," and they couldn't take themselves and their work more seriously, but Hip Irony does seem to be a major motivator among the fanbase (and arguably vaporwave has jumped the proverbial shark).  
Another reason to love DS, I suppose - the super blurry fan/artist spectrum.


Escapism, shadow-dwelling, amateurism, vague boundaries, and an internet stronghold are all shared aspects.
Any other interesting music families out there that share these qualities?

[thekeeper]

Apr 26, 2017 9:41:08 GMT -5 Alder said:

Apr 25, 2017 18:46:56 GMT -5 Tyrannus said:

Do you have a link for this?  (I've no fb right now)

Also, curious to what the group thinks of this opinion: Vaporwave & DS are kissing cousins.

I agree with this point, and agree on your points about vaporwave, for at least producers, being very sincere (though the fanbase was meme-hungry for a long time, it's much less now I think overall everyone is pretty sincere but like humble about it, self-aware). It's a conceptual genre which I think DS is as well. While vaporwave deals with hauntological concepts, hauntology being a vying concept for a future that never came (The Advisory Board), with vaporwave being focused on the late 80s and 90s optimist commercialism aspects (though it's much broader now), I feel that DS deals with a lot of the same kind of conceptual themes in a different fashion. DS is more romantically inclined towards a past that never existed, lots of fantastical medievalism, just as a lot of BM is (not to say all DS is among this line of intention). I don't know if there's a term for this kind of flipped perspective in hauntology, but I called it 'inverse-hauntology' in my FB post. It's a pretty interesting phenomenon to think about. What I was doing with Deepforest was just kind of merging some of these cross-concepts. The looping of vaporwave that instills a 'never happened, always repeating feedback loop' kind fatalism I used in the same way, looping DS fantasy source material in a fatalist incessant way, warped and slowed to sound more 'off' and somber, intending to evoke like an 'is escape possible?' kind of thing. I guess the music sounds much simpler than my ideas and intentions behind it.

This is all kind of besides the topic of this thread though.

More bedtime-story-synth: