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Post by dedran on May 10, 2017 18:14:29 GMT -5
I'm definitely not as knowledgeable about the origins of dungeon synth as a lot of you guys, but I just wanted to contribute something. First, I would think that Mortiis was basically the beginning of dungeon synth as a "fully formed" genre, but his earliest releases compete with Burzum's for being the earliest to feature genuine dungeon synth. Det Som Engang Var was apparently recorded a little bit before Song of a Long Forgotten Ghost, and features Han som reiste, which I think is one of the most important tracks in the history of the genre. You could also argue that even earlier than that, Dungeons of Darkness was almost proto-dungeon synth -- missing a lot of the key elements, but still showing signs of the general sound developing in the near future. I don't know to what extent Varg and Mortiis interacted back then, but I believe Varg had some loose ties with Emperor and at least knew of Mortiis. And Mortiis, as far as I'm aware, doesn't have video game music as a primary influence, but he has mentioned in interviews that Burzum was actually a huge influence (as have Summoning, haven't they?).
So, if you think about it that way, both Mortiis and Summoning probably evolved out of Burzum, which might be genuinely when non-metal elements that evoked a pagan/ancient/medieval/Lord of the Rings/tabletop sort of vibe started to be included. Varg is known to be a lone wolf, not particularly interested in what other people think about him, and he was never one to conform to a scene or try to emulate something, so it makes sense that it just took one crazy individual who didn't care about convention to throw in elements from unrelated genres to create a new kind of atmosphere with his music. His first two albums might have been the actual starting points, I think.
And if you trace Burzum back into his influences, he cites Bathory, who were doing the viking thing at that time, Dead Can Dance, ambient music, and I believe he's mentioned the soundtrack to the DOS game "The Bard's Tale" (I can't remember where I read this -- it might have been an "unofficial" remark in the comments section of one of his YouTube videos, although his written series "A Bard's Tale" does hint at it being accurate with the title being an homage to the game). Bathory never did anything resembling dungeon synth to the best of my knowledge, but he probably did introduce the idea of something non-modern or ancient being worth including in metal. "Spleen and Ideal" by Dead Can Dance might be worth a mention, although from what I gather, "The Bard's Tale" lifted most of its chip music from early music composers like William Byrd, which is actually a really interesting piece to the puzzle. The horns and harpsichords of both Byrd and Dead Can Dance, plus the aforementioned Ultima soundtracks, plus an obsession with nationalism and anything "northern European" (e.g. vikings) seems to have culminated, in some crazy, creative way, in the early Burzum albums, from which we can see an influence on Mortiis and Summoning.
EDIT:
Here's the path that I've traced, just for fun. I can see this, if you play it in order, leading to the very beginnings of dungeon synth:
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Post by thekeeper on May 11, 2017 10:54:46 GMT -5
Also, a commenter on the blog post reminded me of Grabesmond. Can't believe I forgot about "In schwindendem Licht..." So I added that. And I'm changing my mind about Nightshade Forests. Even though it's just an ep and doesn't do much more than Dol Guldur, I still think it was widely heard and important. The list doesn't seem quite complete without it. This seems somewhat out of place in the list. Grabesmond is good, but is it an canonically essential? I've rarely heard or read artists speak of Grabesmond as an inspiration. If I do hear Grabesmond's name dropped, it's in refernce to Mordenheim, which is maybe less pure DS but it seems to hold more influence than Licht does overall for at least DS artists. Could depend on the purpose of your list though, are these albums that should be listened to somewhat subjectively or are they an established 90s canon of observably high importance to the scene's foundation, like without these albums we may not be sure what DS would look like now. In terms of the latter, is Licht important in the life of dungeon synth's establishment as a genre? Could depend how important something has to be in order to gain a list spot, also. Are these important albums then, or moreso albums that hold higher importance now in retrospect?
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Post by andrewwerdna on May 12, 2017 0:52:25 GMT -5
I did initially consider this list to be about albums that were influential then and now, however as you said "Song of a Long Forgotten Ghost" should be on a list of essentials, but I don't think it was significant until mp3 downloading just because of lack of availability (I don't know this for sure). The Grabesmond demo seems like it was similarly unavailable, being limited to only 30 copies when it was released (according to Metallum). So if that doesn't matter for Ghost it shouldn't matter for Licht either.
But as to whether it's as important as these other albums... I'm not sure. I think it is in the sense that it's one of the few releases from the Summoning guys that is pure DS. I was thinking maybe the list could be all the albums which significantly represent the dungeon vision from artists that were not directly influenced from previously-established DS artists. In any case I think I probably need to include a more clear and elegant criteria for the list, so that's something I'm going to think about.
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Post by maximus on Jun 16, 2017 10:10:26 GMT -5
I actually made a DS flowchart a while back. Here it is:
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Post by thekeeper on Jun 16, 2017 10:46:00 GMT -5
maximus, the flows work imo. Don't post it to facebook because you'll get shredded for not including Mortiis or Burzum, haha. Two things (for everyone): - While Burzum and Mortiis are huge foundations for the genre, does anyone not include them in their recommendations when describing or explaining DS to someone who is interested? I think people should listen to both, at least for context's sake, but I'm curious at what point the genre will be big enough where some can like DS and not listen to Mortiis or Burzum, or just not really like them but like other DS. Seems that all DS listeners right now enjoy at least Mortiis. I bet a lot of listeners more recently find Mortiis after finding new Bandcamp era DS.
- Which Abandoned Places album is in your opinion the 'essential'? While I'm extremely fond of Strider of Dead Suns, I wouldn't say it's the essential AP album, just my favorite. I'd probably recommend Lost Paths, for being the first album and somewhat accessible (at least in comparison to other albums), or Elderhills, for being a decent taste of the expansive sounds of AP (half normal length songs, half long, scary sounds, somber sounds, etc).
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Post by chaucerianmyth on Jun 16, 2017 10:59:06 GMT -5
I actually made a DS flowchart a while back. Here it is: I really like the flowchart! I think the bare-bones nature of it really works. Also, in response to thekeeper - I always considered Depressive Silence to be the third essential DS act - on the same level as Burzum and Mortiis. I think this may be a controversial opinion for some, but that's how I see it. The fact that maximus put Depressive Silence in there means he has that base covered as far as I see it. I also think that whether I would recommend someone listen to Burzum or Mortiis depends on what they like in music. If they're not into that kinda sound or style, what would be the point except to potentially drive them away because you're too concerned with the origins of the genre (something that a potential new listener probably doesn't care about yet). I think it's always best to recommend something that someone will most likely immediately like, whether it be old or new, and if they take to the genre, they'll discover its origins themselves eventually.
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Post by maximus on Jun 16, 2017 11:03:59 GMT -5
maximus , the flows work imo. Don't post it to facebook because you'll get shredded for not including Mortiis or Burzum, haha. Two things (for everyone): - While Burzum and Mortiis are huge foundations for the genre, does anyone not include them in their recommendations when describing or explaining DS to someone who is interested? I think people should listen to both, at least for context's sake, but I'm curious at what point the genre will be big enough where some can like DS and not listen to Mortiis or Burzum, or just not really like them but like other DS. Seems that all DS listeners right now enjoy at least Mortiis. I bet a lot of listeners more recently find Mortiis after finding new Bandcamp era DS.
- Which Abandoned Places album is in your opinion the 'essential'? While I'm extremely fond of Strider of Dead Suns, I wouldn't say it's the essential AP album, just my favorite. I'd probably recommend Lost Paths, for being the first album and somewhat accessible (at least in comparison to other albums), or Elderhills, for being a decent taste of the expansive sounds of AP (half normal length songs, half long, scary sounds, somber sounds, etc).
I mostly used Strider of Dead Suns because it fits the 'spooky' mood I was looking for on the chart. But yeah, you can't really go wrong with Elderhills. Also, thanks for your positive criticism of my chart guys, I appreciate it.
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Post by lilac on Jun 16, 2017 11:32:40 GMT -5
maximus , the flows work imo. Don't post it to facebook because you'll get shredded for not including Mortiis or Burzum, haha. Two things (for everyone): - While Burzum and Mortiis are huge foundations for the genre, does anyone not include them in their recommendations when describing or explaining DS to someone who is interested? I think people should listen to both, at least for context's sake, but I'm curious at what point the genre will be big enough where some can like DS and not listen to Mortiis or Burzum, or just not really like them but like other DS. Seems that all DS listeners right now enjoy at least Mortiis. I bet a lot of listeners more recently find Mortiis after finding new Bandcamp era DS.
I think there are a few good reasons to maybe exclude them both. None of the reasons are sonic. Having come up listening to BM through the 90s I was/am well aware of both Burzum and Mortiis and had thoughts about both that could have kept me away from the genre. Burzum there is of course the whole NSBM issue. Mortiis has the whole prosthetics thing going on. This could lead folks to think of other masked bands like gwar or slipknot (shudder), some of Burzum's DS work also has that side show quality having released it from prison. I will admit to not listening to Mortiis at the time as I felt the prosthetics were a little goofy and didn't give it a chance. Not sure what I would have thought at the time if I had listened. I kinda get a kick out of the whole prosthetic thing now, and certainly pass no judgement on anyone who was drawn to his work through that imagery. Further to this, having these two larger groups somewhat undermine the underground appeal of the genre... funny to think of Burzom or Mortiis as mainstream in any way. ha ha. I actually made a DS flowchart a while back. Here it is: This is awesome!
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Post by Carl Shoemaker on Jun 18, 2017 17:53:52 GMT -5
I started listening from the newest old tower release, and then lots of current era band camp stuff. then lots of recommended 90's stuff from the Facebook group, including depressive silence. I finally got around to listening to the first mortis release, and it was an awesome experience. To me it sounded like minimal dungeon synth, with great atmosphere, and the ambient/repetitiveness I like. just my experience.
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Alder
Magic User
Murky dungeon sounds: alderen.bandcamp.com
Posts: 228
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Post by Alder on Jun 29, 2017 12:44:52 GMT -5
All - Feeling my "roots" were a bit weak, I compiled everything mentioned in this thread into a Youtube playlist. Full albums where I could. Public LinkCollaboration LinkThe first link will just take you to see/hear it. Use the second link if you want to be able to add/edit the playlist. Please do, especially if you're particularly up-and-up on your DS origins, etc. While I've known of and Burzum, Mortiis, and Depressive Silence since my early introductions to BM and dark ambient in the mid-2000s, I really only listened to them in the background when I was in "a certain mood." I think I'm relatively representative of a DS "second-wave" fan (3rd wave?): I only became aware of the term/genre/world of Dungeon Synth™ when I heard and fell in love with Hedge Wizard's "More Time Than Thought" in 2014 (although I was brought to it from the world of VGM, not metal), then leading to Lord Lovidicus, Erang, Mausolei, etc. etc. If I were to try and start a newbie out today, these "2nd wave" are the artists I would definitely recommend to them first, with Mortiis et al. as more of a later-stage of listening once they "get it" - catch people by their modern sensibilities, then teach them their history...I mean, wouldn't you all agree that would be the best way to start someone off with, say, Metal or Punk or Hip-Hop? Like, start with Kanye, then ease them into NWA, Afrikaa Bambata... Maybe, maybe not. I think a lot of the DS hardcores from The Day sometimes forget that most of us were much too young to participate in the 90s metal scene in any way and thus it takes a bit of time to learn to truly appreciate the "old masters." All that said, I do agree with the base idea here - there are some DS records that absolutely have to be heard early on (Født til å herske & the DS '96 demo seem the most "core" to me).
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Alder
Magic User
Murky dungeon sounds: alderen.bandcamp.com
Posts: 228
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Post by Alder on Jun 29, 2017 12:52:05 GMT -5
While I'm at it, I want to share another Youtube playlist, specifically so people can add to it : Collaboration link: Dungeon Synth Influence PlaylistPublic Link: Listening only
For a bit I've been dumping anything into this playlist that: > Is influential to dungeon sounds, by texture, musicality, theme, etc. > Is not actually DS > I like It's a bit of a sloppy playlist as things keep getting deleted, several items are questionable in being there, and I'm certain I've accidentally added wrong videos to this list, but I've never pruned. However, it still works out as a neat tangential-to-DS radio station of sorts. Please add to it - I would love to have the continuing input of many people, creating a sort of super-list of influential sounds! (But try not to be overwhelming, y'know)
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Post by andrewwerdna on Jun 30, 2017 2:01:33 GMT -5
I've been listening to that second playlist for a few hours now. Good stuff!
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Post by nahadoth on Jul 2, 2017 8:41:58 GMT -5
I think Return to the Palace of Mirrors was the first one I got truly lost in, and I think compositionally it gets a pretty good range of the AP sound - some tonal melodies, some real unsettling dissonance, and some real avant-garde gestures in the last two tracks.
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Post by ranseur on Jul 2, 2017 9:43:38 GMT -5
I think Return to the Palace of Mirrors was the first one I got truly lost in, and I think compositionally it gets a pretty good range of the AP sound - some tonal melodies, some real unsettling dissonance, and some real avant-garde gestures in the last two tracks. Same, return to the palace of mirrors is the one to start with in my opinion.
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Post by Carl Shoemaker on Jul 7, 2017 21:06:27 GMT -5
so far, the mortis stuff is right up my alley, absolutely love it! the summoning stuff I heard was definitely not my style, the berzum, I listened to just a bit, I'll need to give it more of a chance, but that summoning turned me off real fast. Lots of good DS stuff out there though.......
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