Synthesizers

[andrewwerdna]

In this thread let's discuss synthesizers.

This is a great crash course series:

[thekeeper]

Andrew, you use all analog synths right, no DAWs? What would you recommend for under $150? My only requirement is a good pan flute. Would prefer a full board, not like a micro MIDI board or something.

[andrewwerdna]

Not at all. I use hardware synths a lot, especially the past year or two, but even on Ykcowrebbaj about half of it is softsynths. I do happen to have an analog synth but I have not released anything using it yet.

I absolutely DO NOT recommend analog synths for ds, for the simple fact that they don't have the dungeon sound at all. The dungeon sound, in my opinion, is the sound of early romplers, most traditionally the Roland JV series. It is the sound of these built-in samples, or roms, that has the distinctive sound of realistic orchestral instruments, even when those instruments are mangled into something weird and spacey. Traditional analog synths, as well as virtual-analog digital synths, have usually only a handful of simple oscillators (square, triangle, sine, saw, pulse, etc) rather than samples. Some believe you can replicate any instrument with an analog synth, and that might be true as far as the basic frequencies are concerned, but I've given that a lot of effort and have never gotten the dungeon grit I'm looking for using just the basic analog style oscillators. But that's not to say there's no place for that sound in ds, mixing it with more familiar rompler sounds can make it very easy to uncover unique textures.

All that said, an analog synth should be the last thing in a ds musician's arsenal. There are countless free and cheap softsynths that provide the same general sound, if that's what one happens to be looking for, or just wants to experiment. And for $150 I'm not sure what you could get as far as any decent hardware synth. Best you could do in that price range I think, especially if that is one's first hardware investment, is to buy a reliable midi controller with a comfortable amount of keys and at least a couple knobs and sliders (you can assign these to parameters of softsynths within your DAW to create a more tactile sound modeling approach, like what you'd get with a much more expensive hardware synth). Then focus on softsynths, there is an incredible amount of free/cheap vsts that can be every bit as powerful as hardware.

The first big synth investment one makes (>$300) should definitely be a rompler of some sort, the more samples it has built in the more useful it will be (these are different than presets, samples are basically the raw oscillators from which the preset are built and from which you'll build your patches). I'd also suggest, if you're going to spend a lot of money on a hardware synth (assuming it's digital), it's a better idea to get something that is not well-emulated by a much cheaper and more versatile softsynth, like I wouldn't buy a hardware Korg M1 because the sound should be identical, and the vst version is superior in a lot of ways.

It might also be a good idea to buy a modern virtual-analog synth, since you can get your feet wet with analog synthesis without having to deal with the temperamental issues of an actual analog synth, and most importantly they can function great as a midi controller (but do some research and make sure the knobs and sliders submit midi control changes to your daw).

I got more to say about all this. When I get home later I'll talk about the various synths I've used over the years and give some more specific recommendations.

[nahadoth]

I am not an expert on synthesis despite having done a lot of recording with soft-synths and the like, but I have some basic understanding of the principles.

I have two old analog keyboards that I intend to use on future albums - a Yamaha SK-15, which is a weird fun organ/polysynth/"strings" combo machine, which has some simple envelops to shape and layer sounds, and a really garbage-y Hohner Electronic Piano, which has tinny sounds that process really nicely with pedals. Both are analog, but I think because neither are particularly professional-grade instruments, they have a dungeon-y quality. I agree that you shouldn't go looking to purchase a fancy analog synth, since that's a) a serious financial commitment and b) not often the right sound for this music. But there are some decent lower-end ones out there that have a really unique sound. I know Apothecarium and Effluvium both use commercial home organs like Lowery and Baldwin in their recordings, and there were some instruments produced like that in the 70s and early 80s that have similar character but are more portable.

I rejected the idea for a long time, but I have been exploring the use of some Logic Studio VSTs (includes a sick pan-pipe setting) in some of the current batch of recordings I'm mixing right now, alongside hardware keyboard sounds from this 1993 Yamaha keyboard, and there really is a lot of versatility. On the off chance you have access to a Mac, it would be worthwhile just to give you a bunch of pure soft-synths to play with (various analog mono/poly/ensembles, FM, and then more advanced modeling synths and this fancy thing called Sculpture which gives you a visual to control the source of the sound by material - Nylon, String, Glass and Wind, so you can change the properties of the sound. I'm still using a nearly 10-year old version of Logic Studio 8, but I know many of these featured have carried over into Logic X.

[thekeeper]

Andrew, I actually meant to say hardware, not analog. But good info! I would like an older Roland or even a Casio (I have a very small toy one that I've actually used for some things). I use various VSTs through a DAW the vast majority of the time, sometimes using the computer keyboard to play, but I really would like to get an affordable full keyboard to mess around with. I suppose I should just check out a shop and see what I like. MIDI boards don't interest me that much. I don't like to spend a whole lot on gear. I like to keep my arsenal pretty minimal and basic, I think I wrote about this in the advice thread.

[naeron]

I have a wavestation waiting for me at the post office. Picking up tomorrow. Very excited, and inspired.

[andrewwerdna]

Do you have the VST as well? I'd be interested to hear how they compare.

[surlaneige]

Feb 16, 2017 23:43:47 GMT -5 andrewwerdna said:

I wouldn't buy a hardware Korg M1 because the sound should be identical, and the vst version is superior in a lot of ways.

I own a hardware M1 and the VST. At one point i was trying to decide the same and figure out whether it's worth having both, due to sound or such, so i did a head-to-head test. There is definitely a noticeable difference in the sound of the same factory patch when played by the VST and the original hardware unit. I can't 100% be sure what, and tried my best to explain it, making sure levels were matched, even running spectral analysers and attempting to EQ the VST to get it to sound like the real synth. There was just a certain 'something' missing... Now, that's not to say the VST sounds bad, in fact it's so close i wasn't sure i could exactly trust what i was hearing, but there's a lot to be said for the fact that the hardware is running its own D/A converter on the sound and then you're plugging it in via a cable into an audio interface etc. It has a 'realness' to it when compared to the computer version (such a vague statement... ). 

On the other hand, the hardware is 25+ years old now and needs to be taken care of if it breaks down; is a lot more fiddly to program; has less polyphony; and offers only the basic wave sounds unless you own a few ROM cards, which are overpriced on the second-hand market these days. The VST contains all the sounds ever released for the M1; is very straightforward to use, or at least easier to learn for a beginner; has a lot more voices; can be recalled and manipulated in a lot more ways virtually inside a DAW; can use multiple copies in the same project etc.

I would have been none the wiser and happy to have just kept on with the VST if i hadn't found the hardware at a decent price. And in fact i still use both as some of the extra waves in the virtual instrument are just great...


To get to the point, the M1 VST is a preferable expenditure over the hardware if you can afford it. Then i would recommend saving for a different ROMpler which doesn't have a virtual equivalent, such as Roland JV like Andrew suggested (JV1080 is my favourite, been looking for one for ages... JV2080 is good too).

The Yamaha TG series is very useful too, but are modules with no keyboard: TG-33, TG-55, TG-77, TG-500. TG-77 is the daddy but probably still quite a lot of $$$. Also Yamaha V50 is nice, as are some of the other later 4-op FM synths with keys (some from the SY series in particular).

Kawai K1 can be had for very little money nowadays, has a full keyboard with aftertouch, and sounds dirty and very misty, grainy, digital.

Casio CZ series is nice for dungeon sounds when combined with some effects, and go for cheap too. They aren't the best to program (lots of button pressing), but sound-wise very decent.

Analogue synthesisers only really become useful for DS if they are polyphonic, which makes for decent string pad and swirly spooky effect sounds. That said, most good analogue polys are rightly sought-after for such sounds and command a high price on the market these days.

As nahadoth said, the Sculpture synth in Logic can produce some very workable DS type noises, as can Garageband on the budget end (which, incidentally, or not, is what Varg now uses for his ambient sounds, at least according to one of his videos or posts on the internet somewhere).



Best get on Youtube and plug in the names above to find videos of people running through the sounds on the synths and get an idea for yerself and your own ears.. Have fun!

[nazgaldracul]

Feb 17, 2017 1:23:50 GMT -5 thekeeper said:

Andrew, I actually meant to say hardware, not analog. But good info! I would like an older Roland or even a Casio (I have a very small toy one that I've actually used for some things). I use various VSTs through a DAW the vast majority of the time, sometimes using the computer keyboard to play, but I really would like to get an affordable full keyboard to mess around with. I suppose I should just check out a shop and see what I like. MIDI boards don't interest me that much. I don't like to spend a whole lot on gear. I like to keep my arsenal pretty minimal and basic, I think I wrote about this in the advice thread.

Gear4music has some affordable hardware, i'm currently waiting for a 54 key keyboard with decent but old school sounding samples that i ordered for 50$. They also have more expesive ones with more features, but it is still very affordable

[andrewwerdna]

I love watching synthesizer demo videos, so I'm just going to post them here whenever I come across cool ones.

[andrewwerdna]

[andrewwerdna]

[garvalf]

The DX7 is perfect for DS music! Thank you for posting this!
I'm composing my DS album at the moment, using only DX7 sounds (emulated, I don't have a real one, but FM music is rather faithful in emulation)...

[andrewwerdna]

I'm slowly being converted to the FM camp I think. There's a sort of synthetic purity to the sound that I just love.

[surlaneige]

Pretty sweet for a box that looks like it could be Patrick Bateman's answering machine...