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Post by thekeeper on Jan 28, 2018 3:41:47 GMT -5
Have noticed a new thing going on in the past few days where some artists are abandoning the tag of 'dungeon synth' for other terms. Noticed this a few months ago when the term 'battle synth' was being used on a few bandcamp pages, artists describing themselves as something else when in actuality fitting wholly into what dungeon synth is, even artists who are more traditionalist in their philosophy and definitions of dungeon synth; battle-synthers were mainly Bastard Sword and Carnifexian if I remember correctly. Recently, The True Werwolf within the comments on a teaser video for his split with Druadan forest said he rejects of the term, instead describing his music as 'death music' or 'medieval majestic ambient'. Today on Verminaard's facebook page, he wrote a farewell post of sorts to his association with the term and scene and removed it from his BC tags. I noticed Oldenhelm/Forest Wanderer removed the tag as well. Thangorodrim, Sequestered Keep, and Fief have hopped on the abandonment train, too. I'm sure a few more of the Trve clan will follow suit in the coming days.
For my personal take on this, while I support artists doing whatever they want with their own work and not letting genre tags define them or keep them from expanding their sound if they desire, this seems less likely to be a creative freedom issue than an attempt at separatism and distancing for fear of association with newer artists and a scene deemed 'lesser'. I would guess this stems from an opinion of the scene being too broad now, including in the modern canon a lot of music that is further from the Mortiis-y root of DS with some artists getting quite noisy and others quite gamey (plus whatever 'posers' people interpret in the midst). For some reason I doubt anyone who is dropping the tag will actually change their sound enough to not be 'dungeon synth' anymore, and it doesn't actually make a difference since these artists no longer interact with anyone anyway (and actually their music might get lost in broader tags of 'dark ambient', though I've seen 'medieval dark ambient' used), so it's mainly just a curious thing that stands out as being somewhat pointless to me. Even dungeon noise artists are still entirely 'dungeon synth' to me, just as idyllic artists, and none of these are dropping the DS label altogether since there's still the philosophical root of DS. I guess we'll have to see if anyone actually changes their sound, but that would certainly seem odd considering the previous emphasis on trveness, 'tradition', etc. I don't see this catching on with anyone but these few artists themselves. I suppose if this truly satiates a desire to conceptually part with everything they see wrong with DS, then I suppose its ultimately harmless, everyone else moves on and continues within the scene. I would still say that none of these artists are merely 'dark ambient' however, since DS is deliberately named to escape the vagueness of 'dark ambient' (much of DS is quite melodic and not strictly ambient anyway).
I kind of see it as, say, if very obvious black metal band known for opinions on criticizing something like blackgaze and how few people make 'real black metal' anymore stopped calling themselves 'black metal', instead opting for 'evil metal' or 'dark raw metal', or just plainly 'metal'. Sure, they can if they want, it's their project of course, but they're still a black metal band by all definitions and probably according to 95% of their fans; they're still making what everyone would define as black metal. I suppose one could argue that an artist makes art within the genre/style they refer to themselves as, but with the medium of music at least it seems much more up to listeners to categorize artists. If Cannibal Corpse renounced the term 'metal', should no one list their next album on Metal Archives? (Classification by consumers probably applies to most art, actually, if a scene or term is already established)
On some level this reminds me of the An Oak Tree postmodern art installation by Michael Craig-Martin where he has a glass of water that he's calling an oak tree, though that was a whole different thing. Also reminds of when Wolf Eyes said they were 'trip metal', which was really just on another level of humor.
What does everyone else think? Do you foresee dropping the term getting more popular? Is there a larger consequence for popular DS artists distancing themselves from DS association, or does it not really matter if their sound doesn't shift enough to fall out of the classification? State of the 'scene' in your eyes?
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Post by crystallogic13 on Jan 28, 2018 4:49:24 GMT -5
With all due respect for the great music of Thango,Fief,Seq.Keep etc etc, I just find all this distancing and stuff just as a silly childish drama. My thoughts are that fans will label according to actual music and not the tags bands/artists themselves put. As an example, I also see a lot of completely random stuff being tagged as Dungeon Synth on BC. Well, no matter how they tag it it will never be discussed, mentioned, listened, bothered from any DS fan if it ... is not..! Simply, if something is Dungeon Synth even related and not tagged, like an RPG soundtrack, a black metal side project or an epic movie soundtrack or anything related, it will be tagged and discussed etc by fans.
So the only thing that this lack of DS tag on their bandcamp and maybe "distancing" from the DS communities besides the buzz/fuzz will bring is soooome relay as to when some of those artists release something and it's catched upon the community. And that's all. (if it is DS).
If someone though decides that he needs to reinvent himself and his music and change styles as that Verminard's post suggests, then it is a good move since if you are not going to create DS then of course is more than welcome not to put the tag , and all are happy.
So I guess I wouldn't bother much, kinda drama related kings and queens i feel, it will resolve by time ..
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Post by thekeeper on Jan 28, 2018 5:11:07 GMT -5
With all due respect for the great music of Thango,Fief,Seq.Keep etc etc, I just find all this distancing and stuff just as a silly childish drama. My thoughts are that fans will label according to actual music and not the tags bands/artists themselves put. As an example, I also see a lot of completely random stuff being tagged as Dungeon Synth on BC. Well, no matter how they tag it it will never be discussed, mentioned, listened, bothered from any DS fan if it ... is not..! Simply, if something is Dungeon Synth even related and not tagged, like an RPG soundtrack, a black metal side project or an epic movie soundtrack or anything related, it will be tagged and discussed etc by fans. So the only thing that this lack of DS tag on their bandcamp and maybe "distancing" from the DS communities besides the buzz/fuzz will bring is soooome relay as to when some of those artists release something and it's catched upon the community. And that's all. (if it is DS). If someone though decides that he needs to reinvent himself and his music and change styles as that Verminard's post suggests, then it is a good move since if you are not going to create DS then of course is more than welcome not to put the tag , and all are happy. So I guess I wouldn't bother much, kinda drama related kings and queens i feel, it will resolve by time .. Yeah, there may be a bit of lag in the larger DS online groups, but anyone who has purchased their music before will get notifications about new music; it's mainly anyone who is newer to the genre and looking at the DS tag who isn't already on here or in the facebook group that might not realize they had new music out. Certainly, they won't get talked about any less among DS fans. I do hope that by dropping the label of DS that some of the traditionalists steer their music into the direction they truly want it to go in without label boundaries, if they felt confined by the label before, but I doubt that will happen. I think Verminaard might do some interesting things though, and he wasn't really traditional before anyway, pretty interesting and often unorthodox actually. So I agree, it doesn't really change anything or how anyone describes them, it's mainly a weird social positioning thing.
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Post by Tyrannus on Jan 28, 2018 11:55:20 GMT -5
Yoo I was literally an inch away from starting this exact thread yesterday I think. I find it really weird that this is a new trend, to abandon the tag. I’ll read the rest of this thread and provide a more detailed follow up in a sec
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Post by Tyrannus on Jan 28, 2018 12:24:10 GMT -5
Ah so I’ve read the full thread now so I’ll give the rest of my two cents. I find all this behavior rather petty and childish on their end. One wonders how they have so much time and energy to spend worrying about pointless nonsense. It’s ironic that many will claim this is a way to “regain focus” or something but it seems like it’s an indicator that they’re preoccupied with all the wrong things. Maybe this little stunt will clear their heads as planned. One can only hope. There’s nothing admirable about being so delusional and blinded by arrogance
Edit: well this here was my initial reaction but now I’m pondering it all a bit more...
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Post by ranseur on Jan 28, 2018 17:19:27 GMT -5
I could be wrong but I think the term battle synth was actually around before the term dungeon synth. So maybe it's not totally arbitrary.
But to the larger issue I'm not sure how to feel. To me I don't think anyone associated with the idea of true dungeon synth was ever really traditional to begin with, and that makes it somewhat dissimilar to the true black metal thing no matter how you slice it. I never took issue with the polished orchestral idea, I think the worst thing that could happen with this genre is if it turned into a mortiis plagiarizing pissing contest. Maybe it does make sense for them to move away from the genre if they want to move towards something more like soundtracks. Or maybe not I don't know. I don't really want to argue with anybody anymore regardless though, I never had a problem with them but I often felt attacked by them on grounds that just didn't make sense to me. The idea that a more polished ds project is more true never made sense, it would be like saying dark funeral is more true than mayhem. I always had respect for their different vision of this genre even if it was the opposite of what I wanted to do with it, but to be called not true kind of pissed me off, I'm sorry. Wish this could have been worked out differently, I mean for fucks sake we're just a bunch of dorks making synth albums at the end of the day right? But then again maybe it will spring board those guys into doing some really interesting albums. That's all I ever cared about.
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Post by Tyrannus on Jan 28, 2018 20:56:24 GMT -5
I agree on feeling attacked, that’s never pleasant. I mean I take DS very seriously but a lot of the hostility seems out of place
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Post by chaucerianmyth on Jan 28, 2018 21:25:02 GMT -5
I mean for fucks sake we're just a bunch of dorks making synth albums at the end of the day right? But then again maybe it will spring board those guys into doing some really interesting albums. That's all I ever cared about. Exactly. This is what blows my mind about the whole thing to the point where I just cannot even fathom what all the fuss could be about. In a genre which stemmed from LARPers and people who unironically wore prosthetic troll noses, it seems beyond silly to be embarrassed by it now, when so much good music is being made.
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Post by Tyrannus on Jan 28, 2018 22:51:07 GMT -5
I mean for fucks sake we're just a bunch of dorks making synth albums at the end of the day right? But then again maybe it will spring board those guys into doing some really interesting albums. That's all I ever cared about. Exactly. This is what blows my mind about the whole thing to the point where I just cannot even fathom what all the fuss could be about. In a genre which stemmed from LARPers and people who unironically wore prosthetic troll noses, it seems beyond silly to be embarrassed by it now, when so much good music is being made. It doesn't make any sense to me. It's supposed to be deeply personal and subjective but these historical revisionists act like the genre is about something else. No one should feel ashamed of their or anyone else's fantastical vision. I've always felt a certain portion of the community views DS as something that "needs legitimizing" to other artists and the outside world. These people are resentful of the description of DS as "black metal guys making fantasy keyboard music" or any accusation of "cheesiness" or "nerdiness" or anything like that. These are people who don't really seem to understand what the genre is or what its origins are. It was never about showing off or wowing the outside world, but creating your own introspective realm. So now these same people are just abandoning the term altogether since they clearly don't stand for the same things. Sure, the genre name "dungeon synth" is itself something that's only been applied retroactively. Perhaps by abandoning it they feel they're throwing back to the old days before the term existed. Rather than thinking of themselves as moving "beyond" dungeon synth perhaps they think of themselves as moving to a time BEFORE dungeon synth as a term existed, and before anyone tried to unify or describe all this music. This would in theory free them up to have their own standards and conventions and ideas as to how to make their music, and not have anyone there to question their beliefs as being "not in keeping with the spirit of dungeon synth" or anything like that. I feel that regardless of their reasoning, it's still a bit flawed considering we live in 2018 and the style of "dungeon synth" is established and loosely agreed upon and it's weird to just act like you're suddenly no longer a part of that. But as I ponder their rationale I do find some things quite intriguing. Why do we use the term "dungeon synth"? Really concretely speaking there's not much that actually "defines" it from a sonic standpoint, at least not in such a way that 100% concretely differentiates it from other styles. I mean I myself struggle to devise a definition for dungeon synth that distinguishes it from ambient/dark ambient/other electronic music WITHOUT mentioning "superficial" details like the historical relation to black metal WHILE ALSO managing to be inclusive of all the diverse music we describe by that term. Arguably it is NOT A GENRE by any real sonic definition however it is more of a "scene" or a "community" or perhaps even just a "stylistic concept" rooted in both a sound and a cultural context. So if this genre, really just a "tag", becomes something abhorrent and uncouth, it actually seems fairly common sense to just shed it like old skin. So I guess in a way to leave the scene is a really inconsequential act in a way, if you view it as being detrimental to your art then it shouldn't matter if you distance yourself. Your call. I myself find the tag helpful still though and don't mind being associated with it or anyone else who calls themselves Dungeon Synth. My music sounds largely unlike a lot of DS but I feel comfortable tagging it as DS because there's a true spiritual linkage there to what I believe DS to be about. I don't think it's healthy to live in the past and to get bashful about who you get associated with. Sure you may not agree with calling your art "nerdy d&d music" or something but I find it a little melodramatic to feel like you need to distance yourself so greatly. It doesn't need to be this big statement. This does make me wonder though, what the point of having an umbrella to put so much largely unrelated music under is. Is there in fact a unifying element, perhaps this "spirit" we discuss? Are we just here for the community aspect? How is the tag serving us? It's all stuff to ponder. I think I like the tag and will continue to use it but I can't help but question many things.
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Post by Tyrannus on Jan 28, 2018 23:06:01 GMT -5
While we talk about there being like 3 waves of DS I feel as though there are two main “eras” of the genre. The past was typified by being the “descriptive” era in which the term Dungeon Synth was only retroactively applied to the music, and the modern era is “prescriptive” in which our understanding of the genre informs how we make our music.
I think the folks abandoning the tag don’t want to seem as though they’re aspiring to make music of a genre which they feel has developed a bad reputation. They want to act as though they have a music vision totally uninformed/untouched/untainted by “undesirable” encroachments into the style of Dungeon Synth.
The problem is that it’s kind of too late to just pretend you’re not associated with the genre, despite what you may say. You can’t pretend you’re back in the “descriptive” era. I mean fine I guess you can pretend that, I mean I feel like it’s a bit delusional, but really these guys are a part of the modern era, like it or not
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Post by ranseur on Jan 29, 2018 0:17:57 GMT -5
While we talk about there being like 3 waves of DS I feel as though there are two main “eras” of the genre. The past was typified by being the “descriptive” era in which the term Dungeon Synth was only retroactively applied to the music, and the modern era is “prescriptive” in which our understanding of the genre informs how we make our music. I think the folks abandoning the tag don’t want to seem as though they’re aspiring to make music of a genre which they feel has developed a bad reputation. They want to act as though they have a music vision totally uninformed/untouched/untainted by “undesirable” encroachments into the style of Dungeon Synth. The problem is that it’s kind of too late to just pretend you’re not associated with the genre, despite what you may say. You can’t pretend you’re back in the “descriptive” era. I mean fine I guess you can pretend that, I mean I feel like it’s a bit delusional, but really these guys are a part of the modern era, like it or not I think the reason the term dungeon synth caught on is 100% to differentiate it from dark ambient. I was in the dark ambient scene in the early 2000s and the dungeon stuff was a huge point of contention, it was considered illegitimate or a poor man's dark ambient. Literally it was described as shitty synth music played by black metal people. The attitude toward it was very negative, which is I think the reason there are so few albums from the 2000s. So maybe the idea that it should be legitimized, meaning made more professional sounding, could stem from that. But to me I think giving it a name and defining its own characteristics without relation to dark ambient is enough. It was obviously enough to draw interest, especially from younger people who weren't around earlier on. And I think it is its own genre, but I would just describe it as a form of fantasy synth music that grew out of synths used in black metal, in that sense it makes no big difference if it's varied. So I would never want to go back to calling this dark ambient.
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Post by Tyrannus on Jan 29, 2018 0:59:15 GMT -5
While we talk about there being like 3 waves of DS I feel as though there are two main “eras” of the genre. The past was typified by being the “descriptive” era in which the term Dungeon Synth was only retroactively applied to the music, and the modern era is “prescriptive” in which our understanding of the genre informs how we make our music. I think the folks abandoning the tag don’t want to seem as though they’re aspiring to make music of a genre which they feel has developed a bad reputation. They want to act as though they have a music vision totally uninformed/untouched/untainted by “undesirable” encroachments into the style of Dungeon Synth. The problem is that it’s kind of too late to just pretend you’re not associated with the genre, despite what you may say. You can’t pretend you’re back in the “descriptive” era. I mean fine I guess you can pretend that, I mean I feel like it’s a bit delusional, but really these guys are a part of the modern era, like it or not I think the reason the term dungeon synth caught on is 100% to differentiate it from dark ambient. I was in the dark ambient scene in the early 2000s and the dungeon stuff was a huge point of contention, it was considered illegitimate or a poor man's dark ambient. Literally it was described as shitty synth music played by black metal people. The attitude toward it was very negative, which is I think the reason there are so few albums from the 2000s. So maybe the idea that it should be legitimized, meaning made more professional sounding, could stem from that. But to me I think giving it a name and defining its own characteristics without relation to dark ambient is enough. It was obviously enough to draw interest, especially from younger people who weren't around earlier on. And I think it is its own genre, but I would just describe it as a form of fantasy synth music that grew out of synths used in black metal, in that sense it makes no big difference if it's varied. So I would never want to go back to calling this dark ambient. Hm that’s fair. I agree that DS as a term is to some extent really helpful for finding music with a particular sound, although it could be said that it’s less helpful as time goes by and the amount of things called DS vary and diversify. But outside of dark ambient like I think stuff like neoclassical darkwave is very close to DS but I dunno. Perhaps it is truly its own genre. I just know a lot of what I hear I find myself thinking “I could also describe this as being a part of ___ genre” so I feel like if there is a sonic definition then it still is only kinda secondary to the association with black metal and certain visual aesthetics, in a way...maybe not secondary but I guess I should say the sound alone can’t define something as ds, like I think it needs to possess certain visual and thematic elements. But it’s hard to say
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Post by ranseur on Jan 29, 2018 1:33:03 GMT -5
I think the reason the term dungeon synth caught on is 100% to differentiate it from dark ambient. I was in the dark ambient scene in the early 2000s and the dungeon stuff was a huge point of contention, it was considered illegitimate or a poor man's dark ambient. Literally it was described as shitty synth music played by black metal people. The attitude toward it was very negative, which is I think the reason there are so few albums from the 2000s. So maybe the idea that it should be legitimized, meaning made more professional sounding, could stem from that. But to me I think giving it a name and defining its own characteristics without relation to dark ambient is enough. It was obviously enough to draw interest, especially from younger people who weren't around earlier on. And I think it is its own genre, but I would just describe it as a form of fantasy synth music that grew out of synths used in black metal, in that sense it makes no big difference if it's varied. So I would never want to go back to calling this dark ambient. Hm that’s fair. I agree that DS as a term is to some extent really helpful for finding music with a particular sound, although it could be said that it’s less helpful as time goes by and the amount of things called DS vary and diversify. But outside of dark ambient like I think stuff like neoclassical darkwave is very close to DS but I dunno. Perhaps it is truly its own genre. I just know a lot of what I hear I find myself thinking “I could also describe this as being a part of ___ genre” so I feel like if there is a sonic definition then it still is only kinda secondary to the association with black metal and certain visual aesthetics, in a way...maybe not secondary but I guess I should say the sound alone can’t define something as ds, like I think it needs to possess certain visual andvthenatic elements. But it’s hard to say I just think it developed in parallel with other styles because of technology. I think you can trace it back to euromymous' bizarre meeting with conrad schnitzler more than dead can dance or something. It's important to me that it has those roots but i guess some people might not be worried about it.
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Post by andrewwerdna on Jan 29, 2018 2:14:47 GMT -5
I don't have any strong feelings on this one way or the other. It is interesting though that (as far as I know) none of these people were active before the term caught on and it started getting popular, so it would seem they're trend-hopping as much as anyone else, even if they try to deny it by calling it something else. I'm not bothered by it though, it's just a term, as long dark dungeon music is recognized for what it is as being its own thing it doesn't matter to me what it's called.
The one alternate terminology I wholeheartedly approve of though is Soporific Sorcery's "torture chamber music," he was calling it that before the dungeon synth term came along and I think it's cool that he sticks by it.
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Post by Carl Shoemaker on Jan 29, 2018 6:52:31 GMT -5
my only grip with this on any level is that WE the music listeners might miss out on great DS music if it's not labeled as such, and would rely on the community at large to bring it to our attention. This in relation to Bandcamp searches.
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