|
Post by nahadoth on Jan 30, 2018 9:17:56 GMT -5
speaking of the Old Tower statement there, and I saw it posted in an interview. I don't like how he (rhetorical) cuts down other acts as not being true DS or whatever, silly fantasy music. maybe I'm the only one that interprets this as callous. I'm not sure if I see it as callous rather than just vaguely elitist. That's why I posted it here, not because this artist is rejecting the dungeon synth label, but because it seems to have the same air of elitism that some artists who are rejecting the label have also demonstrated. Ultimately, I'm very surprised that there are artists in this scene who reject the fantasy association out right, and even seem upset that there is a fantasy association with this genre. I know it is possible to make dungeon synth with more of a historical or mythological focus, or even to make your own "world" in the way that Erang does, but it seems like it still comes from the same place no matter what the intention is.
|
|
Tyrannus
Verified Account
Knowledge is Night
Posts: 806
|
Semantics
Jan 30, 2018 13:42:11 GMT -5
via mobile
Post by Tyrannus on Jan 30, 2018 13:42:11 GMT -5
Interesting... Does "all affiliated groups" include the trve ds group? I remember him saying part of the goal of the trve group was to avoid drama too, and likewise I think this has the potential for opposite effect, but he does seem sincere about his intentions. I hear London is dissolving the group, just a rumor
|
|
|
Post by andrewwerdna on Jan 30, 2018 22:39:20 GMT -5
speaking of the Old Tower statement there, and I saw it posted in an interview. I don't like how he (rhetorical) cuts down other acts as not being true DS or whatever, silly fantasy music. maybe I'm the only one that interprets this as callous. I'm not sure if I see it as callous rather than just vaguely elitist. That's why I posted it here, not because this artist is rejecting the dungeon synth label, but because it seems to have the same air of elitism that some artists who are rejecting the label have also demonstrated. Ah right, I should've understood what you meant initially, sorry. Yeah, I think it's kind of odd that he says most of DS is generic fantasy music while his stuff is somehow more personal. I feel like that's a criticism that would apply more to the trve folks than to the rest of the community. For better or worse I think vague elitism kind of comes with the territory, and honestly I think it can be a good thing. It can create a psychological state that is good for the creation of this kind of music, even if that sense of elitism is not necessarily justified. I personally find Old Tower to be a bit overrated and too reliant on Mortiis emulation, so in this case I think the attitude that his stuff is somehow superior is a bit pompous and just inaccurate, but maybe that's the spirit he needs to channel in making his art.
|
|
|
Post by andrewwerdna on Jan 30, 2018 22:59:40 GMT -5
Interesting... Does "all affiliated groups" include the trve ds group? I remember him saying part of the goal of the trve group was to avoid drama too, and likewise I think this has the potential for opposite effect, but he does seem sincere about his intentions. I hear London is dissolving the group, just a rumor Well, if that happens I hope most of them come back to the main group or even to the forum here. And I hope they speak openly about their ideas and concerns (and are allowed to do so). I have no problem with elitism, even if I might disagree with it and argue against it, but passive-aggressive elitism is lame. I believe constructive arguments can be had, without "drama," if we're not overly sensitive about these things.
|
|
|
Post by Carl Shoemaker on Jan 30, 2018 23:13:27 GMT -5
speaking of the Old Tower statement there, and I saw it posted in an interview. I don't like how he (rhetorical) cuts down other acts as not being true DS or whatever, silly fantasy music. maybe I'm the only one that interprets this as callous. I'm not sure if I see it as callous rather than just vaguely elitist. That's why I posted it here, not because this artist is rejecting the dungeon synth label, but because it seems to have the same air of elitism that some artists who are rejecting the label have also demonstrated. Ultimately, I'm very surprised that there are artists in this scene who reject the fantasy association out right, and even seem upset that there is a fantasy association with this genre. I know it is possible to make dungeon synth with more of a historical or mythological focus, or even to make your own "world" in the way that Erang does, but it seems like it still comes from the same place no matter what the intention is. yeah, callous was probably the wrong term, pompous elitist attitude sums it up better.
|
|
Tyrannus
Verified Account
Knowledge is Night
Posts: 806
|
Semantics
Jan 30, 2018 23:15:34 GMT -5
via mobile
Post by Tyrannus on Jan 30, 2018 23:15:34 GMT -5
I hear London is dissolving the group, just a rumor Well, if that happens I hope most of them come back to the main group or even to the forum here. And I hope they speak openly about their ideas and concerns (and are allowed to do so). I have no problem with elitism, even if I might disagree with it and argue against it, but passive-aggressive elitism is lame. I believe constructive arguments can be had, without "drama," if we're not overly sensitive about these things. I’ve been thinking a lot about elitism, and I agree it has a certain value for creativity or a persona. But I think you should also know when to turn that off and not be a dick for no reason. Admittedly anyone can do what they want, but I mean some behaviors are liable to result in people saying “wow what a dick”. I think for instance that elitism is much more tasteful when it’s done by maintaining a distance, versus directly like bashing people, which I’m glad is mostly what’s happening.
|
|
|
Post by jondexter on Jan 31, 2018 2:37:44 GMT -5
Just seems wanky to me, egotistical tossing. Try hard poseurs trying to act cool and be hipster trendy ‘non hipster untrendies’. Bloody stupid eccentric try hard kids with no real lives and nothing better to do apart from pull themselves off. Haha seriously though I find all this stuff so cringeworthy I just try to focus on people’s music and not let their absurdly inflated egos put me off.
|
|
|
Post by andrewwerdna on Jan 31, 2018 8:06:16 GMT -5
Ehhh, idk man. It's kind of a traditional attitude. Have you ever read old black metal zines? Mortiis is in a lot of them. Here's an example from Kill Yourself 4:
|
|
|
Post by nahadoth on Jan 31, 2018 10:01:39 GMT -5
Ehhh, idk man. It's kind of a traditional attitude. Have you ever read old black metal zines? Mortiis is in a lot of them. Here's an example from Kill Yourself 4: I think the key difference here is that Mortiis was defending himself against people actually hated his work. Or who didn't understand what he was trying to do. Wasn't he receiving death threats from black metal people for abandoning the style? I definitely agree that elite is him and black metal always have been linked, and it certainly seems like the modern way of elitism in DS harkens back to that in some way. But then again, what confuses me about hearing this from Old Tower is that he's about to play Roadburn FFS.
|
|
Tyrannus
Verified Account
Knowledge is Night
Posts: 806
|
Semantics
Jan 31, 2018 12:00:43 GMT -5
via mobile
Post by Tyrannus on Jan 31, 2018 12:00:43 GMT -5
Ehhh, idk man. It's kind of a traditional attitude. Have you ever read old black metal zines? Mortiis is in a lot of them. Here's an example from Kill Yourself 4: I think the key difference here is that Mortiis was defending himself against people actually hated his work. Or who didn't understand what he was trying to do. Wasn't he receiving death threats from black metal people for abandoning the style? I definitely agree that elite is him and black metal always have been linked, and it certainly seems like the modern way of elitism in DS harkens back to that in some way. But then again, what confuses me about hearing this from Old Tower is that he's about to play Roadburn FFS. I feel like to be a ds elitist today is certainly in keeping with tradition in a way but it definitely means something different now than it did for Mortiis, on some level. So I feel like it could go either way. Some people will interpret it as being traditional while to some it just looks like posturing
|
|
|
Post by thekeeper on Feb 1, 2018 12:40:17 GMT -5
speaking of the Old Tower statement there, and I saw it posted in an interview. I don't like how he (rhetorical) cuts down other acts as not being true DS or whatever, silly fantasy music. maybe I'm the only one that interprets this as callous. I'm not sure if I see it as callous rather than just vaguely elitist. That's why I posted it here, not because this artist is rejecting the dungeon synth label, but because it seems to have the same air of elitism that some artists who are rejecting the label have also demonstrated. Ultimately, I'm very surprised that there are artists in this scene who reject the fantasy association out right, and even seem upset that there is a fantasy association with this genre. I know it is possible to make dungeon synth with more of a historical or mythological focus, or even to make your own "world" in the way that Erang does, but it seems like it still comes from the same place no matter what the intention is. Old Tower is a very personal project, and quite fantastical, so I don't think he's plainly rejecting fantasy association itself (there is a mythos around the Shadow Kingdom, and he did make a movie with Warden with them roaming fields, forest, and caves holding up swords and torches), rather he's distancing himself from perceptions of Old Tower being purely fantasy-centric in a pulpier media-focused way. I think some people could be very prone to seeing most DS as being plainly to toy with fantasy concepts and some goofy S&S stuff, but it can be very ethereal, personal, and introspective. On one hand, who cares what people think of the music, but on the other hand I can understand why some artists would want to highlight that distinction considering it's often created as a 'inner-world' projection. Yeah, I think it's kind of odd that he says most of DS is generic fantasy music while his stuff is somehow more personal. I feel like that's a criticism that would apply more to the trve folks than to the rest of the community. For better or worse I think vague elitism kind of comes with the territory, and honestly I think it can be a good thing. It can create a psychological state that is good for the creation of this kind of music, even if that sense of elitism is not necessarily justified. I personally find Old Tower to be a bit overrated and too reliant on Mortiis emulation, so in this case I think the attitude that his stuff is somehow superior is a bit pompous and just inaccurate, but maybe that's the spirit he needs to channel in making his art. I loved him since day one when he posted Book of Ages samples on Soundcloud (I actually nearly never got the first tape since it got lost in the mail, but he found an extra like 6 months later), and his split with Sacred Dominions is easily on of my favorite DS releases, but his new stuff did get boring for me. Spectral Horizons was really Mortiis-y but I felt it was still a good OT record, retained some the bedroom-recording isolationist sound he had in his previous tapes but you could tell the direction it was going in. Rise of the Specter was pretty disappointing since it sounded less like Old Tower, more 'typical DS' or something, and I find it weird that it's like his 'breakthrough' release or whatever you'd want to call it since it's his worst album. Hoping Stellary Wisdom isn't more of the same. I hear London is dissolving the group, just a rumor Well, if that happens I hope most of them come back to the main group or even to the forum here. And I hope they speak openly about their ideas and concerns (and are allowed to do so). I have no problem with elitism, even if I might disagree with it and argue against it, but passive-aggressive elitism is lame. I believe constructive arguments can be had, without "drama," if we're not overly sensitive about these things. I don't see a listing for the group on FB anymore, unless they switched it back to being a hidden group. I assumed he dissolved it, or perhaps they renamed it something non-DS sounding since they don't affiliate with the term anymore but probably still want to interact with each other. I do wish more would post here, or even return to posting here since a few have accounts and I see their name on the recent users list at the bottom of the homepage every month or so. Perhaps that's less likely to happen now since it says "Dungeon Synth" right at the top and they're distancing themselves from that. Regarding elitism, the tone of old BM zines is kind of fun. Lots of elitist statements with a decent amount of exclamation points, "these new black metal bands mean nothing, they have no spirit of evil!!!", and up to a certain point I can see the use for that stuff for the purposes of what they were doing with their music and how they wanted their music to be consumed, but stuff like that sounds very emulative now. Modern BM elitism usually sounds corny if it's all on the internet, too imitative of old interviews, typically quite bandwagon-y and memetic, and the argumentative tact people have has fallen steeply. I guess even poorly-considered elitism can add to an aesthetic if someone is really going for that, but their reasoning or purpose for saying 'X thing' is typically quite apparent. Stoicism or withdrawal, or at least well articulated and solicited elitism, is much more respectable now that people try to show off really hard how elite they are by "crushing the posers who tarnish the soul of real black metal (16 likes, 4 shares, 5 comments signaling hate for blackgaze)" or whatever when nobody cares. OT's comment is totally understandable considering the project's purpose, and he's a pretty kool and thoughtful guy.
|
|
|
Post by dedran on Feb 1, 2018 17:19:40 GMT -5
I've never listened to Old Tower personally (I'm now going to take a listen out of curiosity), but I think you can distance yourself from what you consider to be the more generic music within a scene that you loosely belong to while still accepting that people like it, and acknowledging that there's nothing wrong with people liking what they like.
That said, I sort of see his point in that statement. When I listen to a lot of 90's stuff, it has more of that primal, almost "familiar" feeling to it than a lot of newer stuff. It's not that most newer artists are bad, they're just more interested (again, only in some cases) in a lighter, more fantasy-driven, nostalgic sound. For me, there is interesting fantasy music in video games, but with the exception of a few boss themes, a lot of it is a bit too happy and floaty for my tastes -- more accessible and less esoteric, because I guess it has to be in order to appeal to a broader audience.
What differentiates a lot of 90's dungeon synth from this is that, although it's quite similar aesthetically and utilizes a lot of the same virtual instruments, there's still that more primitive/ancient quality to the music -- perhaps due to repetition, or exotic chords, or something along those lines -- plus a stronger connection to the depressive elements of black metal. I tend to favor artists that mix black metal emotions, ancient authenticity, and old school computer fantasy sounds; take away one or two of these three elements, and it starts to become something a bit different. It just seems like a lot of newer artists would sooner cite their favorite Commodore 64 game as an influence over something like Burzum. Maybe that's what he's talking about.
|
|
|
Post by crystallogic13 on Feb 2, 2018 17:58:31 GMT -5
... artists would sooner cite their favorite Commodore 64 game as an influence over something like Burzum. Maybe that's what he's talking about. Well I wouldn't mind really,not a problem
|
|
|
Post by Almenning on Mar 30, 2018 15:22:25 GMT -5
Are all these deflectors American? Might be the start of a True American Majestic Synth movement I hope the genre continues to evolve but it would be nice to at least keep some of the original offbeat charm. There was also a time when Andrew Eldritch tried not to be associated with goths anymore but ended up realising it was them who were paying his bills and never mentioned it again.
|
|
|
Semantics
Mar 31, 2018 4:29:48 GMT -5
via mobile
Post by andrewwerdna on Mar 31, 2018 4:29:48 GMT -5
I'm curious what the trve folks are up to these days. Does anyone know if their group is still active?
|
|