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Post by andrewwerdna on Jun 18, 2017 16:02:39 GMT -5
Is there really a lot of status and money to be had in DS? This concept has popped up before in other threads I think but is dungeon synth really a genre that people see as a way to fame and fortune? Does dungeon synth inherently weed out "the false" (i.e. those who aren't really sincere) or do trendhoppers find a way in? Aren't trendhoppers too busy making chill, lo-fi hip hop to put on YouTube or SoundCloud with an anime thumbnail? I guess this thread would be as good a place as any to really settle the matter as to if DS is in fact "trendy" right now and to what extent. This can help us figure out what is "bad" potentially, which can help us with what's "good". I'd also like someone to like point to a project they think is actually doing this kind of cash grab since really I just feel like it's not that common. I also need to revisit that other thread I don't think anyone is trying to get rich necessarily, but I think there's a growing attitude that money needs to be involved to prove support. I've noticed some artists limiting the number of tracks that can stream, so you have to buy the album to even hear the whole thing. I don't like this because I feel like one of the wonderful things about modern bandcamp music is that we've escaped from traditional business models and financial dependency and now can make music that is entirely noncommercial, motivated only by the love of music. Even the stuff that has a big fancy package and costs $5+ for a download usually allows you to stream the whole thing for free, so I still don't think money is a primary motivator at all. But when people limit the streaming that gives me cause for concern. I'm not going to name names though, I think it's probably not a good business decision in any case since it will limit exposure; speaking of "chill lofi hip hop," I've noticed some of those albums on bandcamp are name your price and yet have an absolutely absurd number of purchases. I mean just look at this (it was name your price a month or so ago, but I guess the free download ran out so now it's given as a separate link in the description). So ironically perhaps not being concerned about money at all is the attitude you need to have to get rich on bandcamp... Still, I will say this, better to do "name your price" than "free download" because if you do the latter I don't think your album gets listed under the genre tags. Anyways, I'm not going to accuse the big, bombastic orchestral DS of being trendhoppers necessarily. I don't like it personally, and I do think it has a problem of being too formulaic, but the lofi and experimental DS albums can have their problems as well. I have respect for the soundtracky stuff so I'm not going to say it's bad. I look at it like the writing of Robert E. Howard, respectable but not for me. Looking through best sellers on BC now for stuff I'm not into. Couldn't get into Uruk-Hai (stated above); Balrog is too soundtracky for me; Barak Tor's older stuff was okay but I didn't like the new album which I found too soundtracky and less majestic; didn't like the new RaevJager album nearly as much as some previous stuff; I thought the new Ekthelion tape was just a direct Lamentation copy without the stuff that makes Lamentation interesting; new Elixir stuff is all blending together for me; couldn't get into Terrenon for some reason. I don't think any of these artists are bad, though. I guess I'm just not into soundtracky DS. [Awaiting my doom] I've never really been able to get into RaevJager, but I've also never been able to get into power metal either which is I guess his background. I've heard some Elixir which was good but it's never really grabbed me. And I agree on Barak Tor, March of the Triumphator is too triumphant for me. The rest I don't think I've heard. In general I'm most likely to turn a DS album off if it's too over-the-top in aggressively demanding your attention, like Michael Bay DS, which there seems to be a growing amount of. One of my least favorite of my own tracks is Statue of Zeus at Olympia. I don't regret going this route considering the concept, but I'm definitely not going to be pursuing that sound any further.
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Tyrannus
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Post by Tyrannus on Jun 18, 2017 17:10:33 GMT -5
That's a good point that the soundtrack stuff is certainly respectable, which I'd say it is. It takes a level of technical skill and precision that I don't really feel I have, so I definitely respect it. However it's not particularly magical/mystical for me, since it seems so close to a film score or something comparably artificial. I don't want to be reminded of a movie or something because I don't actually like movies that much, or the film industry, or the film score industry. Soundtrack DS sounds just too human to me, and the fact that they're like all based on Tolkien doesn't help haha. I don't really care for references to existing fantasy franchises...I'd much rather it be the artist's unique fantasy creation than like some fanboy playing MIDI homages to their favorite franchise. So like I said, the technical proficiency and perhaps even general musical ability of these artists far exceeds mine, but that doesn't really make me enjoy the music. It doesn't have atmosphere to me. So to me I hardly consider it DS, since it lacks like the actual raw magic that DS should have. It sounds nice but DS is about a lot more than that to me. Prestige and reputation and triumph to me are concepts which don't belong in the dungeon. In a way the online community warps the genre...people change what they're doing and how they do it based on feedback from people online. Hierarchies emerge and your integrity is compromised by the painful modernity of your medium. It seems the purest DS is the most detached, like Abandoned Places. The genre is going through an awkward growth spurt and I think this is a critical time. The next few years will clarify the role and meaning of the genre in this digital, social media intensive era. I don't foresee the community maintaining this interest in deriviative soundtrack material for too much longer. What do you all think of the impacts of these online means to all keep in touch with each other? Where do you think the genre is heading?
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Post by thekeeper on Jun 18, 2017 21:58:32 GMT -5
Is there really a lot of status and money to be had in DS? This concept has popped up before in other threads I think but is dungeon synth really a genre that people see as a way to fame and fortune? Does dungeon synth inherently weed out "the false" (i.e. those who aren't really sincere) or do trendhoppers find a way in? Aren't trendhoppers too busy making chill, lo-fi hip hop to put on YouTube or SoundCloud with an anime thumbnail? I guess this thread would be as good a place as any to really settle the matter as to if DS is in fact "trendy" right now and to what extent. This can help us figure out what is "bad" potentially, which can help us with what's "good". I'd also like someone to like point to a project they think is actually doing this kind of cash grab since really I just feel like it's not that common. I also need to revisit that other thread I don't think anyone is trying to get rich necessarily, but I think there's a growing attitude that money needs to be involved to prove support. I've noticed some artists limiting the number of tracks that can stream, so you have to buy the album to even hear the whole thing. I don't like this because I feel like one of the wonderful things about modern bandcamp music is that we've escaped from traditional business models and financial dependency and now can make music that is entirely noncommercial, motivated only by the love of music. Even the stuff that has a big fancy package and costs $5+ for a download usually allows you to stream the whole thing for free, so I still don't think money is a primary motivator at all. But when people limit the streaming that gives me cause for concern. I'm not going to name names though, I think it's probably not a good business decision in any case since it will limit exposure; speaking of "chill lofi hip hop," I've noticed some of those albums on bandcamp are name your price and yet have an absolutely absurd number of purchases. I mean just look at this (it was name your price a month or so ago, but I guess the free download ran out so now it's given as a separate link in the description). So ironically perhaps not being concerned about money at all is the attitude you need to have to get rich on bandcamp... Still, I will say this, better to do "name your price" than "free download" because if you do the latter I don't think your album gets listed under the genre tags. Anyways, I'm not going to accuse the big, bombastic orchestral DS of being trendhoppers necessarily. I don't like it personally, and I do think it has a problem of being too formulaic, but the lofi and experimental DS albums can have their problems as well. I have respect for the soundtracky stuff so I'm not going to say it's bad. I look at it like the writing of Robert E. Howard, respectable but not for me. There certainly isn't much money to be made in the genre, it still has such a small audience compared to a lot of other highly underground genres. I would personally not charge more than $1 for my own music, regardless of the amount of work I put into it just because I'm 100% unmotivated by the monetary reaction to it and don't view paying as the sole means of support. I appreciate when some emails me saying they loved a release more than someone paying $5 for it (sometimes I felt like "you could have paid less, I'd appreciate your listening either way, save yourself the money", haha). I feel it makes more sense to let listeners decide the cost of it. Digital streaming content makes more sense that way, or at least DS does considering the personal nature of the music. Removes the labor theory of value more. Before Bandcamp when I'd make music I'd give everything away for free and only the physical stuff actually costed something. Charging very much for digital stuff is weird to me in the sense that it's set at a certain price either because an artist feels the price they set is equatable to the work put into it, or really just set higher because they have the chance to make some money off of their stuff. This leads me to question though like why higher prices like $5? Would the music have been made if it wasn't sold afterward? Would they not make music at all if they couldn't sell it, or not let anyone hear it without paying? Just makes more sense to leave it at 'pay what you want' from a 'need to create' POV. If you're trying to like make a living off of your art, it makes some sense to charge. If not, it seems like the creative process is treated as wage work. I wouldn't necessarily knock another artist for charging for their music, but if streaming is limited and it costs like $5+, seems pretty lame. I'd agree with Andrew, I feel that 'pay what you want' garners more downloads in total, even if it's low price downloads, that may very well equal a higher sum in a time period than if the artist set the price as static and more costly. I've gotten some purchases on stuff that's been way higher than what I'd expect, but I'm still honored when people download for free. It's just nice to know people appreciate or understand your output enough to want to have it own their own computer or whatever, paid or not. Art and money is a weird topic. I should say I understand Voldsom's pricing. He didn't even want to make digital copies of anything at all, so everything is priced the same as a physical tape, the intended sole medium of listening (for multiple reasons. You may as well just buy a tape. I guess some stuff is sold out that still costs full price, but at least you can stream everything. I don't think big orchestral projects are trend-hoppers either, considering it takes a lot of time to make that kind as like a baseline. A fine-tuned, well-produced album takes time and knowledge of you're doing. Perhaps I'd have to sit back and look at all the soundtrack-y projects to make a honest statement about how much I enjoy or don't enjoy them. I mean, I put out the second Spectral Kingdom album and it's incredibly orchestral and not among the hazy lo-fi stuff, but it's just so good and original because of the composition and honestly pretty emotionally evocative. But based on those artists I listed, which most are among the soundtrack sound, I'd say on average I'm less likely to enjoy a soundtracky project based on what's I've heard thus far. That's a good point that the soundtrack stuff is certainly respectable, which I'd say it is. It takes a level of technical skill and precision that I don't really feel I have, so I definitely respect it. However it's not particularly magical/mystical for me, since it seems so close to a film score or something comparably artificial. I don't want to be reminded of a movie or something because I don't actually like movies that much, or the film industry, or the film score industry. Soundtrack DS sounds just too human to me, and the fact that they're like all based on Tolkien doesn't help haha. I don't really care for references to existing fantasy franchises...I'd much rather it be the artist's unique fantasy creation than like some fanboy playing MIDI homages to their favorite franchise. So like I said, the technical proficiency and perhaps even general musical ability of these artists far exceeds mine, but that doesn't really make me enjoy the music. It doesn't have atmosphere to me. So to me I hardly consider it DS, since it lacks like the actual raw magic that DS should have. It sounds nice but DS is about a lot more than that to me. Prestige and reputation and triumph to me are concepts which don't belong in the dungeon. In a way the online community warps the genre...people change what they're doing and how they do it based on feedback from people online. Hierarchies emerge and your integrity is compromised by the painful modernity of your medium. It seems the purest DS is the most detached, like Abandoned Places. The genre is going through an awkward growth spurt and I think this is a critical time. The next few years will clarify the role and meaning of the genre in this digital, social media intensive era. I don't foresee the community maintaining this interest in deriviative soundtrack material for too much longer. What do you all think of the impacts of these online means to all keep in touch with each other? Where do you think the genre is heading? I don't care for the industries as much, but I like movies and the occasional soundtrack. Soundtracks are just different, even if they're dungeon-y sounding. I suppose with a soundtrack, it's meant to enhance, add to, or complement the film scenes, so the listening experience is more guided in that way, different from a more abstract transportative personal thing like DS. I guess you could listen to soundtracks in the same way, I guess I'm less likely to for most soundtracks. I always visualize the film or whatever it's for. I think Tolkien-centric stuff can be good. I see some of it as interpreting the novels in a musical way, or playing off of the feeling whatever Tolkien stuff gives you, or nostalgically gave you. Still can be transportative and image invoking even if sometimes it's specific media stuff. Like Thangorodrim is great and there's a lot of Tolkien references in his music (but he's not soundtracky, imo). I love Lord Lovidicus too and he has a ton of Tolkien references, sometimes briefly reiterating some of the movie themes. LL is an odd one out for me. He's getting increasingly more soundtracky, but I still love everything he's done. He's just really great at creating atmosphere from composition. You always know it's him, too. I actually see soundtrack stuff becoming more prominent as people start to take composition and production even more seriously, but I also see people staying in the bedroom "making do with what you have" kind of lo-fi stuff as well, which I think brings more people into the genre than the soundtrack style. Bedroom projects will continuously emerge and the soundtracky projects will continue to hone their craft and skill in production. As far as compositional trajectory, I think people will continue to push the boundaries of DS and try new things until some more micro-genres emerge under different names. The progressive stuff keeps the traditional projects in motion as well, each new thing in DS will probably spark a "back to the basics of Mortiis and Burzum" thing, whether that's out of reaction or if they just honestly miss the old sound if there's a ton of new stuff that's doesn't have that sound. Same with black metal, I guess. Since I know everyone loves when I compare DS to vaporwave, I'll do it again. Vaporwave started out very seriously but self-aware of it's seemingly simple/easy and naive means of production, sample based stuff. Lots of sample-based projects arose since it was kind of easy to make. I think this is similar to DS, but most people saw, or still see, vaporwave as a meme and made projects for meme's sake, whereas the DS influx is still relatively sincere (but I still don't think the 'influx' is that big). Real serious vapor projects were mad that people weren't taking it seriously, thought things were over-saturated, and split off from a lot of the vapor scene at large. Maybe this is equatable to the creation of the "true DS group" considering the facebook group is like the main hub of communication for fans and artists in DS. The vapor artists who broke off shed a lot of the sample-based vapor sounds starting making purely originally composed vapor much more, sometimes taking on 'dreampunk' as a descriptor (this break started with the album 'Vaporwave is Dead' by Sandtimer). Eventually, the meme-ness started to wear off as physicals became more and more prominent, and 'classic vapor' actually became a thing, focusing on the sample based stuff more. Maybe something similar will happen, or is happening, with DS.
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Tyrannus
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Post by Tyrannus on Jun 18, 2017 22:48:37 GMT -5
It'd take up a lot of space to quote you thekeeper haha so I shall just reply and tag you. Your comments on Tolkien and soundtracks make a lot of sense! Regarding vaporwave, influxes, and sincerity, I'm just compelled to ask again like do you perceive a lot of insincere acts coming onto the DS scene these days? I mean I can pick up on varying degrees of sincerity but I have yet to see a complete meme/joke album, as far as I can remember. It seems like we're skirting around this a bit. No need to call anyone out but like do you perceive this as an actual trend and a legitimate concern? I'm not asking if you "understand the concern" but moreso if it's a concern of YOURS. Many people have said they don't think there's a real influx but I'm just interested in the opinions of others. To perhaps rephrase: is the purity/sanctity of dungeon synth under fire? What should be done? Also regarding money I just wanna say I totally agree that money and support are not synonymous here. I make my stuff "name your own price" because I care more about people being able to hear it and check it out versus making money or anything. I think most of us here would agree, but I've heard some folks on fb express a hard and fast opinion that money = support. I can I guess understand the perspective but I definitely wouldn't say I agree with it. Some people have already given their two cents (money puns, lol) but again I'm eager to get a bunch of opinions!
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Post by thekeeper on Jun 19, 2017 10:42:45 GMT -5
It'd take up a lot of space to quote you thekeeper haha so I shall just reply and tag you. Your comments on Tolkien and soundtracks make a lot of sense! Regarding vaporwave, influxes, and sincerity, I'm just compelled to ask again like do you perceive a lot of insincere acts coming onto the DS scene these days? I mean I can pick up on varying degrees of sincerity but I have yet to see a complete meme/joke album, as far as I can remember. It seems like we're skirting around this a bit. No need to call anyone out but like do you perceive this as an actual trend and a legitimate concern? I'm not asking if you "understand the concern" but moreso if it's a concern of YOURS. Many people have said they don't think there's a real influx but I'm just interested in the opinions of others. To perhaps rephrase: is the purity/sanctity of dungeon synth under fire? What should be done? Also regarding money I just wanna say I totally agree that money and support are not synonymous here. I make my stuff "name your own price" because I care more about people being able to hear it and check it out versus making money or anything. I think most of us here would agree, but I've heard some folks on fb express a hard and fast opinion that money = support. I can I guess understand the perspective but I definitely wouldn't say I agree with it. Some people have already given their two cents (money puns, lol) but again I'm eager to get a bunch of opinions! I actually don't perceive a lot insincerity in many newer projects/albums posted to BC, so I don't really understand what so many people seem to have a problem with. I said once on Facebook, the ratio of my opinions of interesting:uninteresting albums isn't too different than like three years ago. People experiment a lot now since the genre is more defined, for one, but there were still a lot really weird projects in the early BC days, still a lot of MS Paint art. Maybe some people recently critical of the scene believe that was more acceptable then than it is now. Who knows. There does seem to be a lot more mis-attribution of term 'Dungeon Synth' in terms of tagging, but that's to be expected. There actually was one joke album that some people got a little mad about, seems to be making fun of the critical hardcores given it's title and noise elements. It does feel like (I'll have to actually count to confirm) more projects are charging more money recently, or at least not setting prices that I would personally equate to the music (the $5 Chamber of Stillness releases, to name a name). Maybe people are charging more because they feel it gives them a spot in the scene or something? Like "I know my music is worth something", perhaps figuring people will perceive their confidence in their own music, people liking that they hold their music very dearly or something, and respecting them because of that. I don't know. But if you look, there are more purchases on PWYW albums than $4 or $5 albums, at least from what I've seen, and these smaller and more frequent PWYW buys probably equate to a greater sum than fewer higher price buys (so the ones wanting money are probably doing it wrong). The majority of albums at those prices I would not buy. Erang albums I do buy, and they come with some kool extras and he's a very original artist so I think they're worth it. I don't really think it's a major problem though, to charge a lot for your digital albums. Fewer people will buy it, which these artists perceive more as support, so perhaps granted there is less 'monetary support' or whatever (not really the case), that will sort itself out like in a market sense. It's odd to me to treat genres as things that can be 'hurt'. Like Andrew has said, it made more sense in the early days to be more steadfast in 'what DS is' because it was literally being defined and defined in a specific way, which we now enjoy the success of. It matters less now, to me. Everything feeds off of the other. More people making dungeon noise means more people making hi-fi soundtrack stuff. More people sticking to the old-school sounds means more people moving towards the avant garde and progressive compositions. That kind of inadvertent push and pull just happens. And there are always people in between, lots of artists (most artists?) who aren't reactive to these kinds of attitudes and compositional shifts and stick to doing their own thing. DS is still new to a lot of people, so more and more people join in, but everything falls into its place. Gimmick-hungry people fall off, some gimmick-hungry people become serious. I'm not that concerned, but I do enjoy the original and weird stuff more than Mortiis-core timpani stuff these days. Like people might say, "dungeon noise is ruining the genre", but that just creates more of it. I personally like the ratio to tip more towards the experimental, if I had to choose how it's setup; I enjoy innovation and new ideas but I also like to hear classic sounding stuff now and again if they make it their own (but for classic stuff I mostly just listen to the actual classics). Maybe I'm a genre-Taoist. I'd certainly weigh in with my own two cents. And I think I remember the major points presented by the "true DS" camp if we can't find someone to represent them in the discussion. I'm cross-thread quoting here, but it might be time to represent some of the trve points since I doubt they'll show up.
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Tyrannus
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Post by Tyrannus on Jun 19, 2017 11:27:02 GMT -5
thekeeper none of the Facebook groups are our "enemies" or anything though so while I would be interested in hearing that side of the story I want to avoid creating a rift or anything like that. Although they already seem to be making it "us versus them" from what I can tell. I wish some members of it who also post here would join in the convo a bit more but that's up to them. However I feel like we're kind of paying them too much attention to some extent...what they're doing isn't really important or meaningful in the end. Attempts to fragment the community aren't really a worthwhile endeavor so I don't really see much need to pay attention to them, other than just for the sake of debate and discussion. We're all part of one genre so I'm not sure what use there is in gossiping about them and speculating about what they're doing. It's like taking NSBM too seriously; you'll probably enjoy black metal more if you don't spend all your time arguing with bitter grumps who represent a minority in the scene
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Post by thekeeper on Jun 19, 2017 11:42:41 GMT -5
thekeeper none of the Facebook groups are our "enemies" or anything though so while I would be interested in hearing that side of the story I want to avoid creating a rift or anything like that. Although they already seem to be making it "us versus them" from what I can tell. I wish some members of it who also post here would join in the convo a bit more but that's up to them. However I feel like we're kind of paying them too much attention to some extent...what they're doing isn't really important or meaningful in the end. Attempts to fragment the community aren't really a worthwhile endeavor so I don't really see much need to pay attention to them, other than just for the sake of debate and discussion. We're all part of one genre so I'm not sure what use there is in gossiping about them and speculating about what they're doing. It's like taking NSBM too seriously; you'll probably enjoy black metal more if you don't spend all your time arguing with bitter grumps who represent a minority in the scene Yeah I certainly don't view anyone or community subset as an enemy, just interested in opinions outside the usual ones here since I feel like most of us who post a lot are on a pretty similar wavelength.
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Post by pendraig on Jun 19, 2017 12:17:20 GMT -5
Great thread and discussion so far One thing I find very intriguing as a trend, and seems to be a pretty large factor in how a work is perceived, is the "spirit of the release." I notice a lot of folks talk about "the barbarian spirit" or "spirit of era 1 Mortiis" or something along those lines, which seems to have very little bearing on the sound or composition of a piece, but seems to have a huge effect on how a project or album is received. To that end, I find that a lot of the things created under the banner of warlike, barbarian DS are often the things I like the least - and again, there is no unifying sonic quality to those except maybe a lot of percussion along the lines of Summoning. One artist who got a lot of hype for presentation earlier this year was Oldenhelm - I thought the physical presentation of Ruins and Reverence was quite intriguing, but I was almost totally unmoved by the music. Same goes for the latest Barak Tor, for the reasons thekeeper listed above - the mood was almost monotone throughout, and so much of the mystery of earlier releases were lost IMO. But I think this does bring up an interesting question of how far a professional looking presentation can go? Or how far an intention or "spirit" can go?
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Post by Tyrannus on Jun 19, 2017 14:18:51 GMT -5
Great thread and discussion so far One thing I find very intriguing as a trend, and seems to be a pretty large factor in how a work is perceived, is the "spirit of the release." I notice a lot of folks talk about "the barbarian spirit" or "spirit of era 1 Mortiis" or something along those lines, which seems to have very little bearing on the sound or composition of a piece, but seems to have a huge effect on how a project or album is received. To that end, I find that a lot of the things created under the banner of warlike, barbarian DS are often the things I like the least - and again, there is no unifying sonic quality to those except maybe a lot of percussion along the lines of Summoning. One artist who got a lot of hype for presentation earlier this year was Oldenhelm - I thought the physical presentation of Ruins and Reverence was quite intriguing, but I was almost totally unmoved by the music. Same goes for the latest Barak Tor, for the reasons thekeeper listed above - the mood was almost monotone throughout, and so much of the mystery of earlier releases were lost IMO. But I think this does bring up an interesting question of how far a professional looking presentation can go? Or how far an intention or "spirit" can go? Very fascinating! Sometimes I feel like that's all people are really digesting in an album: its presentation. Read some of these reviews: trogool.bandcamp.com/album/in-the-mists-before-the-beginningI like this album, but if you look you'll see that people literally complement the fact that it possesses a logo and album art. Like I didn't know that was what mattered the most evidently. Also interesting points about "spirit" too, which to me is a thinly veiled way to rationalize a purely aesthetic enjoyment of an album. To me it's inarticulate. You can praise an album in a much more comprehensible and less ambiguous manner if you actually enjoy it and can point to what you enjoy about it. So much of what people talk about in DS actually uses comparably nebulous terminology like "sincerity" and "artistic merit" which isn't meaningless or anything but it's really subjective and kinda difficult to define and understand to some degree. Discussing the genre tends to enter the realm of abstraction rather quickly and easily. It's cool, to me, but quite odd in a way. I think it's a genre that focuses on expression, much like noise and a lot of black metal. perhaps it's just easiest to discuss the genre in a more abstract manner?
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Post by andrewwerdna on Jun 19, 2017 21:45:26 GMT -5
I'd certainly weigh in with my own two cents. And I think I remember the major points presented by the "true DS" camp if we can't find someone to represent them in the discussion. I'm cross-thread quoting here, but it might be time to represent some of the trve points since I doubt they'll show up. Here we go, this is going to be a doozy... I don't know how well I could represent them, I was banned after all. But I was banned for calling them out on inconsistencies, not being "true" enough, rather than arguing against the premise itself. I can sympathize and understand their position to some extent. If I felt that people were losing touch with what dungeon synth is then I would probably also try to engage in some sort of resistance. I don't think we're at that point now, at all in fact, from what I can tell there was ugly-experimentation and laziness from the very beginning. There was a time when I wanted to keep noise/drone/ritual etc. stuff as far removed from DS as possible, that was the whole point as a matter of fact, because for the most part that was what you encountered with stuff labeled "dark ambient," and that was pretty much the only way DS was labeled back then, and yet it is very different style of music. But it's not like the "noise" experiments are claiming to be straight-up DS, they call it something completely different, so I'm not bothered by it at all. However I think the "True DS" people see that differently, the fact that these other genre experiments are being promoted alongside traditional-style DS might confuse and drive away new listeners. Maybe... but I think anyone who sticks with it long enough will be set straight on the matter, and if they're not curious and willing to research then this genre was probably not for them in the first place. But anyways, I'll illustrate what my idea of being "true" would be, if the situation would ever warrant some sort of resistance, and just for the sake of conversation. Some of these values are shared by the "True DS" group, some are certainly not. Don't release lazy/unfinished work. I am guilty of this, but I think considering the valuation of obscure atmosphere means there's a slippery slope where standards get lowered to the point when the vast majority of new releases might end up being weak prolific doodles that even the artists themselves never listen to. Don't take advantage of people being open-minded. Don't release something that you yourself wouldn't listen to. There's some stuff that has been released over the past year or two that I don't understand how anyone enjoys listening to, even the artists; they're easy for me to ignore but I tend to be a bit disengaged from new releases, so I do understand why such stuff might rile up some folks. But that said, there's more high-effort traditional DS albums being released than ever before, and as long as great stuff is still being released I don't care at all how much crap might be floating in the periphery. Stay close to the roots. Experimentation is fine, but if you wander too far don't call it DS. This is a very specific subgenre, and what it conjures is still very fleeting and fragile. I think the classics are essential. I think if someone doesn't like Mortiis, Burzum, and/or Summoning, they do not like dungeon synth as a genre. This is another thing I think the "True DS" group is inconsistent on, like Raevjager for example isn't really DS at the end of the day (even he says so) and yet they'll happily promote his stuff alongside traditional albums. It seems they don't care so much about sticking to the roots as just spending a lot effort. Be serious. This is perhaps where things have changed the most since social media stuff started appearing. And this is what I called out some of the "True DS" folks about, not to name names, but several key members were some of the first to introduce and frequently post "dungeon synth memes," which is so antithetical to the traditional serious attitude. Unfortunately I think being humorless and cold does preserve the illusion to a large degree. But we're human, and by having frequent contact through these social media sites it's inevitable that we'll let loose to some degree and speak comfortably. So that might mean to be "true" one would have to conduct themselves online in a very distant and formal way, if not give up on it entirely and fall back on the silent mystery persona. I don't think there's anything social about dungeon synth at all, this social media stuff is all superfluous. If anything dungeon synth is traditionally reclusive. I think bulletin boards would be easier to communicate and retain that seriousness, so I'm glad this exists. There just seems to be something so inherently "untrue" about facebook, with the whole popularity-based "like" system and everyone's regular lives on display for all to see. But all that said, I certainly don't uphold this "true" seriousness myself anymore, I'll joke around, post cheesy guilty-pleasure music, praise Xynfonica, etc. I draw the line at memes though, that irks me, the complete opposite of "True DS." Don't fetishize physical products. This is where I feel I am most alone, but I don't care about physical releases at all. It should just be about the music. I think part of the reason the "True DS" folks got upset was that some of these more challenging experimental lofi albums were being released physically. They were using physical releases as a sort of standard of quality control, the idea behind "only physical is real" is that when an artist goes to the effort to get the album physically produced that represents a greater degree of effort overall. This is just wrong, wrong, wrong in my opinion. If effort is what counts should it not be better than an artist dedicate ALL their time to the music rather than splitting it between music and tape production? Why should slapping some sounds onto a cassette demonstrate any sort of special quality? And if people believe that an album not being released physically means that it's low-effort then they will miss out on many great albums produced by artists who don't perceive any extra significance in these formats. Now I do understand how listening to a vinyl or tape, giving a bit of an extra, more tangible step to the listening process, can be nice, but it's certainly not necessary. And I think when people give too much value to this it becomes more about a process of collection than an aesthetic experience, it becomes more a product than an art form. Don't over-promote. In my opinion a dungeon synth album should ideally be created for the artist alone, not for selling records or becoming popular. So you might ask, why release the albums at all then? Good question, I think the most dungeon synth thing ever would be to make a masterpiece DS album and never release it at all. However I think exposing it to the world and hearing feedback from those who are interested can be considered part of the artist's engagement of the work, but to continuously promote an album suggests other motives for its creation. Freely give criticism. This is again partially why I was banned. I think if we are to attempt to be true and institute a form of quality control that starts with direct open criticism, both of the specific albums and how people conduct themselves as fans and artists. That's why I think the "True DS" group isolating themselves from the rest of the community seemed so counter-intuitive. Being "true" means confrontation, it means standing up for your ideals, not hiding from those who don't share them. This would mean calling out the albums which they feel don't uphold the values that the genre represents. This would possibly mean more argumentation, but that's not necessarily a byproduct (though I honestly think it can be fun), constructive criticism can be given in a way that is quite respectful and is often times more productive. I think if there's a quality control issue, the first step to try and address it would be to get one's hands dirty and speak up on the specific cases, directly to the perpetrators, but I saw none of that leading up to the group split. I think we need more asshole critics in the community, people who fearlessly shred even mediocre albums. Whether you agree with them or not those kinds of reviews are always entertaining to read. Anyways, it's stuff like this that got me banned. I'm not trying to promote or push these values on anyone because I don't think there's any problem with the scene that requires severe conservation, and I'm not even going to follow them myself, but I feel like if you want to be "true," do it right, and this would be my conception of how to be genuinely "true" to dungeon synth. And I know we talk too much about the "True DS" group, but you have to admit they drew a very interesting line in the sand which fosters engaging discussion, which is essentially "resistance is called for." But the point of this terribly long and convoluted post is that I generally don't they do a good job representing "trueness."
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Tyrannus
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Knowledge is Night
Posts: 806
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Post by Tyrannus on Jun 19, 2017 23:04:06 GMT -5
andrewwerdna that is very interesting! I want to follow up on a few points because I find this all very fascinating! No laziness: I agree with this largely, definitely. No one wants to engage with art that seems like the artist didn't give a shit about it. However like you said it can be hard to determine what was actually lazy and what was deliberately sort of sparse and minimal. All I can really say is that you shouldn't put up an album online if you're not proud of it yourself. Maybe looking back on it, your opinion of it will change, but you need to be satisfied at the time of its release. I know sometimes I get really excited and publish preemptively (I edited some of an album of mine after publishing it and had to make a note about it on bandcamp) but generally I'm quite pleased with what I make. I think everyone should be pleased with what they make before releasing it, if possible. With the album I mentioned earlier I actually did think it was ready but then listened more and more and realized otherwise. I can imagine from the outside that might look pretty shitty so it is what it is. But yes in general I agree here. Close to the roots: I must admit I find this kinda weird in a way. I definitely agree there should be an appreciation for the roots but it seems weird to be like that reverent, I don't know. But I guess it makes sense considering the specificity thing you mentioned. I find this to be present in black metal too, this love of being formulaic and derivative. But it's sad to me to solely praise material that's just doing the same god damn thing as always. I of course love the classics and appreciate albums that appear to "exemplify" the genre, but what the hell is the point of clinging to this twenty years later? Is thinking small what you're supposed to do in DS? Why even make it anymore if the "good times" are over and not coming back, if that's what one believes? As has been said previously, I care mostly about albums that are unique and bold and interesting. If one wants to keep things traditional forever than whatever, that just doesn't interest me. Not that no one should make it but fuck, count me out. Serious: yeah I mean this of course makes sense, no one wants a comedy/joke album. At least not in DS. At least I don't. But I'm not a very serious person in general so I mean I enjoy having fun and letting loose online here and there. But I do think you should be serious about your art. Physical products: huh.....well on the one hand I get that music is the bottom line, and that not having physical releases is not a bad thing at all, but I do love the hell out of tapes and enjoy making and collecting them. Of course they're not necessary but I understand the appeal and wouldn't diss anyone for liking tapes or anything. Tape distribution is to me in fact being "close to the roots" because limited tape runs are how a lot of the earlier stuff got around, since it was pre-bandcamp. Vinyl and CD do basically nothing for me because they seem to not really be very DS. I like tapes but hell, not everyone has to. I find it kind of hilarious that the true fb group gets triggered by someone landing a physical tape release since in DS I feel like you'd need to make a conscious effort to not get physical distribution. Some labels seem to gobble up like everything tagged under "dungeon synth" on bandcamp so you're right, it's no amazing feat to get a tape release. Don't over-promote: hell yeah, this is true for any genre. No one likes a shill. I can't tell if you're joking about the not releasing the masterpiece album at all thing, but regardless I think that effectively illustrates the contradictory nature of a fixation with being "true"...if you're that concerned about obscurity and integrity than why the hell post about or discuss this genre online? If you're on the forum or in the Facebook groups, you are engaging with the genre in an untrue way, no matter how you slice it. This online community is not how DS used to be, or how it should be. But this is what DS is in 2017 and I enjoy DS as it is now, and in recognizing this I gladly forfeit any rights to call myself "true". I don't want to be "true" if it means walking away from all these people who I've gotten to know. I want to share in the creative experience with others and collectively work to improve our skills and enjoy ourselves. Fuck any bullshit that takes away from this. One thing I very definitely appreciate about the "true" fb group is that they don't actively try to fuck with that. I have problems with their silly reclusivity but it makes the regular group an infinitely more enjoyable place to get that pretense and hostility out of there. Not that we all need to just be nice to each other constantly, but it's pleasant to not have to deal with needless arrogance and nonsense. Freely give criticism: why does nobody fucking do this? I mean I've had people be like "ew, noise" with my stuff but no one really gets into a real discussion with me. Substanceless complaints are almost as bad as substanceless praise. I want people to tell me, and each other, what they do and don't like and to be explicit and be fucking real about it. This forum, sorry, operates in a largely circle jerk manner that feels way more comfortable giving praise than being confrontational. I've gotten a little feedback (here and on fb) regarding my mixing and artwork but not really anything that substantial. I'm of course flattered by anyone taking the time to listen to and tell me what they think about my work, but like I said, be real about it. We're all adults (more or less?) so we can handle this, I'd say. I'm tired of all the pussyfooting and "I don't wanna name names shit" like okay there's something to be said for being diplomatic about this sort of thing, but I think it'll be a lot more constructive to just speak your damn mind. If someone doesn't like my shit I want them to tell me and I want them to explain why. If someone does like it I'd like the same thing. Not that I'm expecting essays here I just crave substance and feedback and discussion. I want to reiterate that I'm endlessly grateful for all feedback I've gotten so far, but I want something more challenging, that will help me grow more. I mean one hopefully final comment on the "true" fb group is that I think you're totally right: they're isolating themselves and it's counterintuitive. It's a little impotent safe space that seems to be doing literally fucking nothing to actually "improve" the genre or be what they claim to be. it's just self-serving bullshit masquerading behind a contradictory, nonsensical premise. But I can't even really get that mad about it because it's really not on my radar and not something I interact with so it doesn't matter. It just keeps coming up in this thread so whatever. I don't listen to the music made by most of the people who I can see are members, so I don't really care. I just find it silly.
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Post by nahadoth on Jun 19, 2017 23:25:50 GMT -5
Thanks for sharing that andrewwerdna. I think my impression of the other group was much different from what you've stated - for my part, I definitely got the assumption that the secret group was just about excluding certain styles - that it was always about excluding anything beyond a certain deviation from the mean. As for lead up to secret group being formed, there were a few minor blowups one particular week a few months back, surrounding a few particular releases that I won't name, where the comments were very hostile and in some cases pretty outright offensive, and there was not much interested in constructive or thoughtful criticism, positive or negative. This brought to a head a few other things about true-ness that had been simmering in the FB group for some time, and the rest is history. I think probably ego has as much to do with it as taste, in that there's an expectation that if a dozen other DS releases come out in the same week as yours, that it means less people will hear and talk about yours - that generally the increase in "popularity" of DS or the influx of new artists is as much to do with you not being heard as it is about them being heard, maybe? And of course some of this ties into your point about effort, that there's definitely some notion of hi-fi, soundtracky DS or at least the use of high quality VSTs and samples as being the watermark of high effort releases.
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Post by thekeeper on Jun 19, 2017 23:27:28 GMT -5
I don't think we're at that point now, at all in fact, from what I can tell there was ugly-experimentation and laziness from the very beginning. I feel the same way. There was some weird stuff in the Bandcamp DS listings even when there was less than a full 10 pages of stuff to browse. People didn't seem to vocally mind that much. Let's see how I score on the "Werdna Trve DS Test": Can't say I don't agree. Personally, I've put decent time into the releases I've put out, released once I really thought they were ready. I think it's must more rewarding. I don't have a problem with people posting WIP stuff, or some demo material to get some early feedback. Sometimes this kind of stuff sounds great, sometimes it does feel like it's needing something. "Would I listen to this?" is always a good thing to ask yourself. But honestly, if someone wants to put a release up on BC with a couple of minute long skeletal demo tracks, I don't really care. Maybe someone else will like it. I think it's good to at least add that their rough demos in the description though, so maybe people will see a some potential and stay attentive instead of looking at it and going back to the list. Maybe Soundcloud would be better for that stuff, but it's a messy site. This one I might hold less popular opinions about. Roots are fine, but I don't think they're entirely necessary in being a fan of something. I think someone can like DS and not listen to Mortiis, Burzum, Wongraven, Depressive Silence, etc. I think those people, if they do listen to other DS artists and enjoy and search out what they like, I'd still call them fans. Eventually, if not already, Erang is going to be someone's Mortiis. Hedge Wizard could be someone's Burzum. I think hearing the root artists is inevitable if you're into DS or whatever, but I don't think it's objectively necessary. Could someone be a DS fan if they only listen to the new more progressive stuff? I definitely think so. I think you can be an artist and not care for these roots either. Maybe someone hears Chronicles of Jest, loves it to death, and goes deep into seclusion to crank out the most insane and dreamlike DS album in the past 5 years. I believe everyone has their own subjective roots. I think in terms of genre history and everything, Mortiis and Burzum and all of them are by all means the roots of the genre, and absolutely the vast majority of DS listeners enjoy the bulk of the root artists. Maybe you could say that it's not really fair to say someone is a fan of DS itself if they only like specific artists or specific sounds, I guess that's technically true. But I don't think that level of semantics matters that much. Like "I'm a black metal fan", "oh yeah? You like Darkthrone, Burzum, Mayhem, Ulver, Venom, and Bathory?", "not really, I guess I'm more into I'm in a Coffin, I Shalt Become, Hypothermia, Alcest, Happy Days, Amesouers, Les Discrets, Gris, stuff like that", "so you're not a black metal fan then, you just like DSBM and some blackgaze", "oh, yeah I guess so". Technically true, but is it that necessary to differentiate, at least at this point? I'm not really concerned with how people define themselves or inadvertently represent a genre by calling themselves a fan of it, even if they focus on a particular subset or sound within and don't really listen to the roots. I don't see the roots being forgotten any time soon, anyway. In terms of staying close to the genre's roots as an artist, I'm not interested in giving myself that limitation. Fine for others if they want to do so, just not for me (even though some people have said Cloak & Daggere is really classic sounding, ha). I'm guilty of making one DS meme, I'll be honest Really, it was hardly a meme. It was a joke about the branches of DS that have emerged and how serious they may or may not be taken. I've seen the term "conan-core" semi-seriously used since that post. Maybe Deepforest is also a meme to some people, ha. I actually agree with this and I'm a label operator. I think physicals are kool and are enhancing to the listening experience, but I understand not everyone thinks so, and I don't believe in pressuring people into buying stuff as if that's the only real way to 'show your support' for DS artists. Like I said before, I appreciate an email just saying they liked something I made as much as paying me extra through PWYW, I actually appreciate the email more. But I love tapes and I love CDs. I don't care about vinyl too much. I have less than 20 records in total. From a label perspective, I think giving an artist the opportunity to have a tangible product is awesome, that someone cared about your music to the point they want to spend money and time on making it tangible. That's why I take such a DIY approach to the tapes I put out, it's more fitting for DS in my opinion (but wow does real-time dubbing take a while) and much more intimate. Releasing a ton of music on impersonal tapes is odd to me, too. I keep Path releases seasonal. I agree that "only physical is real" is total crap. Both are quite real, some people just prefer physical. I personally enjoy the combination of form and substance, but it's not as if the substance doesn't exist without the form. Some really popular DS albums are digital only, are those fake? I agree with this also. DS is a very personal genre, being humble about promotion seems more appropriate. I actually only inform people about Path releases once, only informing of tapes selling out after the initial release post. Maybe I'm doing the artists a disservice, haha, but they all do quite fine. The music speaks for itself. I'm probably less likely to give criticism if its not solicited. 'Trueness' would seem to imply a steadfastness and probably more engagement in criticism and discussions about that the music, but maybe 'trueness' for DS is also in one's seclusion? Is an argumentative fan in the facebook group giving some hard and honest critiques of what they see as less sincere albums, are they more 'true' than the secluded artist who conjures dark archaic dreamscapes who doesn't concern themselves with the scene? Who's to say? -- All in all, I'm pretty uninterested in 'trueness' and any possible way of measuring it. The creation of the secret group is simultaneously fascinating and kind of silly to me, but everyone can do what they want, interact or refuse to interact with whomever they want. I'd understand the creation of the secret group more if there was interaction in both realms, people having one smaller private group for comfiness sake where maybe conversations can be more hashed out among more thoughtful posters (these have existed before), but also staying in the public group because that's honestly where like the whole scene interacts and where opinions can honestly clash. Great thread so far.
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Post by nahadoth on Jun 19, 2017 23:33:20 GMT -5
Great thread and discussion so far One thing I find very intriguing as a trend, and seems to be a pretty large factor in how a work is perceived, is the "spirit of the release." I notice a lot of folks talk about "the barbarian spirit" or "spirit of era 1 Mortiis" or something along those lines, which seems to have very little bearing on the sound or composition of a piece, but seems to have a huge effect on how a project or album is received. To that end, I find that a lot of the things created under the banner of warlike, barbarian DS are often the things I like the least - and again, there is no unifying sonic quality to those except maybe a lot of percussion along the lines of Summoning. One artist who got a lot of hype for presentation earlier this year was Oldenhelm - I thought the physical presentation of Ruins and Reverence was quite intriguing, but I was almost totally unmoved by the music. Same goes for the latest Barak Tor, for the reasons thekeeper listed above - the mood was almost monotone throughout, and so much of the mystery of earlier releases were lost IMO. But I think this does bring up an interesting question of how far a professional looking presentation can go? Or how far an intention or "spirit" can go? Very fascinating! Sometimes I feel like that's all people are really digesting in an album: its presentation. Read some of these reviews: trogool.bandcamp.com/album/in-the-mists-before-the-beginningI like this album, but if you look you'll see that people literally complement the fact that it possesses a logo and album art. Like I didn't know that was what mattered the most evidently. Also interesting points about "spirit" too, which to me is a thinly veiled way to rationalize a purely aesthetic enjoyment of an album. To me it's inarticulate. You can praise an album in a much more comprehensible and less ambiguous manner if you actually enjoy it and can point to what you enjoy about it. So much of what people talk about in DS actually uses comparably nebulous terminology like "sincerity" and "artistic merit" which isn't meaningless or anything but it's really subjective and kinda difficult to define and understand to some degree. Discussing the genre tends to enter the realm of abstraction rather quickly and easily. It's cool, to me, but quite odd in a way. I think it's a genre that focuses on expression, much like noise and a lot of black metal. perhaps it's just easiest to discuss the genre in a more abstract manner? I definitely think about the idea of sincerity (and use that term a lot), but I kind of think of it as a measure of conviction, as I do think to some degree that you can tell if an artist believes in what they're doing. To me, that's a pretty important quality to have, and it exists apart from specific technical details like composition, sounds, mix, EQ.
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Post by thekeeper on Jun 20, 2017 0:08:05 GMT -5
Freely give criticism: why does nobody fucking do this? I mean I've had people be like "ew, noise" with my stuff but no one really gets into a real discussion with me. Substanceless complaints are almost as bad as substanceless praise. I want people to tell me, and each other, what they do and don't like and to be explicit and be fucking real about it. This forum, sorry, operates in a largely circle jerk manner that feels way more comfortable giving praise than being confrontational. I've gotten a little feedback (here and on fb) regarding my mixing and artwork but not really anything that substantial. I'm of course flattered by anyone taking the time to listen to and tell me what they think about my work, but like I said, be real about it. We're all adults (more or less?) so we can handle this, I'd say. I'm tired of all the pussyfooting and "I don't wanna name names shit" like okay there's something to be said for being diplomatic about this sort of thing, but I think it'll be a lot more constructive to just speak your damn mind. If someone doesn't like my shit I want them to tell me and I want them to explain why. If someone does like it I'd like the same thing. Not that I'm expecting essays here I just crave substance and feedback and discussion. I want to reiterate that I'm endlessly grateful for all feedback I've gotten so far, but I want something more challenging, that will help me grow more. Thanks for bringing this up. I've felt this way a bit as well. Maybe we're all just too subjective about art where we tend to avoid this kind of stuff. Maybe we've all just been a bit careful since the FB drama. We can all take criticism and appreciate it, negative or positive.
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